Overcoming Communication Challenges and Burnout in STEM with Zach White

Are you an engineer or a STEM professional feeling the burden of burnout? Do you struggle with effective communication? Join me and my guest, Zach White, as we discuss these challenges and more.

Zach sheds light on his journey as a young engineer and how he battled his own ego and rigid mindset which were initially rewarded, but later became his roadblocks. Through these experiences, he has developed a deep understanding of the fears that STEM professionals face when it comes to communication, and he offers invaluable advice on how you too can overcome these fears.

Join us for this episode that promises to change your perspective on engineering, leadership, and the power of communication.

Contact Zach on his website and be sure to check out The Happy Engineer Podcast.

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Book on relationships written by the podcast host, Jennifer Furlong.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Your ability to build great relationships, to self promote authentically without coming across like an arrogant prick. You know your ability to do these things is really important and, just like not all results are created equal, you can do a lot of work and deliver no value. You can also know a lot of people and have no real reach, no strong relationships, no sponsors, no mentors, no people that are helping you get where you wanna go, and so that's where this communication piece is so critical.

Speaker 2: 0:32

Wow. Clearly, it's not all about what you know, but also about who you know and how well you know them. Meet Zach White, a successful entrepreneur, podcast host and CEO with a unique journey that bridges the gap between engineering and leadership coaching. He started his career in mechanical engineering at Purdue, excelling academically but facing challenges in life that led him to a realization Technical know-how was not enough to secure long-term success, so Zach created his company Oasis of Courage to help other engineering professionals avoid some of the pitfalls he has encountered along the way. He uses his experiences to teach others the importance of melding communication skills with their technical expertise, turning them into more balanced and well-rounded professionals.

Speaker 2: 1:39

Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong. So what do I have in store for you today? You all know I love having conversations with all kinds of different people from all kinds of different backgrounds and experiences. Today is no exception. You know I love talking about communication skills, and when we start talking about the STEM field, we start talking about engineers.

Speaker 2: 2:20

And you all know also, with my background in academics, I have taught a lot of students in computer sciences, it, mechanical engineering, all of those different fields. They were not too happy when they were forced to take my public speaking class in order to graduate, but hey, that's one of the things that I will talk with today's guest about. So please help me in welcoming Zach White. He is a podcast host of a podcast called the Happy Engineer. He is a CEO and he also coaches leadership skills to engineers. More than just leadership skills, I mean, we're talking about you know, how are we going to be successful in this field and, naturally, communication is a huge component of that. So, zach, thank you so much for being a guest on the show. I am excited to have this conversation with you and to see the similarities and the differences and how we view communication and how it's going to help us impact our careers, whether it's engineering or anything else.

Speaker 1: 3:25

Jen, what a blessing to be here. Thanks for the invitation and I'm excited. You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter if you're in STEM, your science, technology, engineering, mathematics or anything. What you do is a bedrock of success, so let's get into it. I'm excited for the chat.

Speaker 2: 3:41

Awesome. So before we get started, why don't we catch the listener up on who you are? Tell us a little bit about your journey and how did you go from engineering to what you do today as a coach and, you know, helping others develop their career paths.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Jen, if you can imagine that mechanical engineer who did not want to take your communications class to graduate that was me studied mechanical engineering at Purdue, boiler Up and got into my career with all the ambition in the world, just wanted to be successful. I had always done well in school. I was valedictorian in my high school and did really well at Purdue and had all of this weight of expectation on me from people who loved me my mom and teachers and, of course, within myself, had this desire to go and be somebody, to go build a successful career. And, jen, I only had one strategy for that. It was to get smarter and work harder. It always worked for me in school and I brought that into my life and my career, got married right out of college and started this new thing called life.

Speaker 1: 4:53

And unfortunately, jen, that strategy didn't serve me very well and about six years later I found myself in a place I never wanted to be. I was sitting across from a divorce attorney looking at my life saying how did this happen? I was embarrassed, I was depressed, I was totally burned out. Any success I had built my career up to that point I would have traded to just not feel so ashamed and unhappy as I did at that time, and coming out of that and looking at my life and saying there has to be a better way, I hired my first coach and that coach helped me to approach my career differently. They helped me to understand myself and focus on personal development, communication skills, of course, and a lot of other things and my career exploded, had incredible success, found myself happily remarried.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Life was going so great and people started asking me like Zach, what happened? How did you do this? How did you become the Zach that we know now versus the Zach that was struggling then? And it triggered in me this passion to take what I had learned and put this into a programmatic or a systematic approach that that engineering brain, that STEM professional, could understand, to not walk the path that I had gone down to avoid these huge mistakes. So how do we create success in our careers without trading off everything we love at home and burning out, and so that became the core of Oasis of Courage.

Speaker 1: 6:24

My company that I lead now and the coaching that I do, is to help these engineering leaders get the success they're hungry for, but to do it in a way that fits in the context of a life they love. And here we are now.

Speaker 2: 6:36

That's wonderful. One of the things that I've talked about before on this show is when we think about our career paths and all too often what happens is someone gets a promotion Congratulations, you are awesome at your job and we're going to promote you and then all of a sudden you find out that none of the skills that got you where you are are going to actually help you as a manager, because now you have to deal with people and, of course, at the core of that are the communication skills that are just so incredibly critical. So my first question, going back to thinking about my own engineering students and IT and computer science students all my STEM students- oh yeah, we love them all.

Speaker 1: 7:24

We love them all.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Passion. Yeah, I mean, y'all just really did not want to be in my class.

Speaker 1: 7:31

What is going on there? It was me, it wasn't you. It was me. Okay, I promise.

Speaker 2: 7:38

They seem to be so hesitant. Do you think it's the? I guess it's the personality that tends to go into those more science and tech oriented fields. I was never quite able to put my finger on it, because they ended up being some of the best students that I would have in my communication classes and in my public speaking classes. It was almost like they just had no idea how good they were at this, but they just wanted to continue hiding until you kind of forced them out of their shell. I was just curious as to your take on that. What's the scuttle butt on that? When you're standing around the water fountain, what's everybody talking about in terms of communication and public speaking and why so many people in this field are just so hesitant to get into it?

Speaker 1: 8:40

I like that word hesitant, jen, and you're right about the fact that many STEM professionals have incredible potential to communicate with power and authority and clarity and everything that you would want to influence an audience or a team member or a boss to the outcomes you desire. But there is a sense of hesitancy and there's a lot of directions we could go that might be root causes of this.

Speaker 1: 9:05

To use an engineering, word for it. But why are we so hesitant? And part of this you think about what does a engineer do to become successful? What is their typical approach and how are they graded in life and through academics? And most of that work is done in isolation, with the goal of finding the right answer. Notice the problem, apply the fundamental physics, apply those equations properly and solve the problem to the single right answer. And if you don't get the single right answer, then go back and do it again and keep practicing until you do.

Speaker 1: 9:51

But there's always this judgment of right or wrong in solving and that's what we get graded against. And so we build this mindset that can create a barrier for us in a communication skill, because there's a thousand right ways to give your presentation. There is no single formula. You'll hear a lot of times, jen I'm sure you get this all the time from people who bias towards the STEM mindset. Well, jen, what should I say? What's the script? Please tell me the right words to use when I talk to my boss about that thing or when I go to give the presentation. Tell me exactly what to say.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, I can see the anxiety just come over their faces, when my response would always be well, it depends.

Speaker 1: 10:41

Exactly, exactly. And while engineers do like that answer, it depends once we get into our careers, especially when you're young and your career. You don't really want to hear that, and so that's a part of it. And if you just peel the layers back, jen, if I'm being completely blunt, it's fear and that's universal right. I mean, non-engineers feel the fear as well, but how that fear manifests or the causes of it look different.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Yeah, that's so true. That is one thing that I think we all feel at one point or another, especially when we're talking about communication, whether it's one on one with an individual. If we have to have a difficult conversation, or if we have to get up on stage and we have to talk to a very large group, at some point that nervousness is going to set in and I like to say congratulations, you're human. I mean, we all go through that. There's nothing weird about that. So tell me a little bit about what do you coach your engineers on when you're talking. I know communication is probably a part of that, but the average person who comes to you and they're really wanting to make a difference in their career path what do you typically focus on first for that person?

Speaker 1: 12:01

Jen. We take every client, whether they're a junior engineer or they're a senior vice president. We take all of them through the same core starting work as a client, what we call the lifestyle engineering blueprint, and I joke with folks I got my mechanical engineering degree from Purdue, but I got my lifestyle engineering degree from the School of Hard Knocks and Big Mistakes.

Speaker 1: 12:26

That's right, and so really high level. If you just picture a house and the foundation of that house is your mindset, and we all need to get clear on the reality that your current mindset is what has created the cage or the limitation of what's possible for you today. Your perspective in the present pours the foundation of your future, and so we focus on our mindset. Then the four pillars of the cornerstones of this house is your purpose, priority, productivity and people. And that people element is where communication skills is the boom, boom, boom, beat the drum. It's so critical.

Speaker 1: 13:09

And then the roof of the house we call your playbook because engineers and STEM professionals, where we often get stuck is we want to learn all the information but we don't actually take action. We get addicted to what I call passive action, which is we can fool ourselves into thinking that we're making progress because I'm listening to a great podcast with Jen and Zach and I'm learning. I'm reading a lot of books. I'm consuming all this knowledge, but you're not applying it. And the playbook is about making sure that you're not just learning things, but you're in application, practicing what you've learned in your communication skills or whatever domain is your focus right now and you're getting after that we're actually making it happen, taking action. So that's the model and all of our clients. We work through this because, at the end of the day, when you get these pieces right, when you understand your mindset and you're constantly strengthening the foundation, you master these four pillars and then you're constantly in action.

Speaker 1: 14:13

Literally any barrier in your career can be solved in these buckets. It's not rocket science. In fact, my clients are rocket scientists. They already know that part. These are the things that they don't teach you in school, and so we start there. And, of course, why I'm excited to be here is because that fourth pillar when we get to people, a lot of times that's where they hit the brakes. It's like, oh no, you mean, I can't get there alone. I need to master communication skills, like yep, sorry, all that introversion, all that fear that has kept you from stepping out of your comfort zone. Now's the time to crush that, live with courage and let's go. So that's the big picture, jen.

Speaker 2: 14:53

Yeah, and oftentimes I have found my students who are in this field, and while they do tend to be more introverted, one thing that I love to remind them is that introverts oftentimes end up making incredible communicators, because you can focus your in tune to the other person, you know, you can really listen to what the other person is saying and you're striving for understanding, and so that's an incredible skill to have.

Speaker 2: 15:25

So you don't have to be that, you know, insane extroverted person who, as soon as they enter the room, all eyes are on them. You know, and you do a couple of cartwheels or whatever, like you're entertaining the masses. That is not what makes an effective communicator. So I like to put that concern to rest with a lot of my students who do come from this field, because they have this misunderstanding that in order to be an effective communicator, they have to somehow change their personality or be someone different, and it there's nothing farther from the truth. You know, I really truly like to encourage them to be yourself. You know, being an introvert is actually an asset. Have you had similar conversations with those that you coach in this field?

Speaker 1: 16:18

100%. And, jen, you're right. For whatever reason, we think that extroversion and introversion is correlated or proportional to the communication acumen. And I just tell my clients right away if you break those two ideas apart introversion, extroversion is in no way related to your potential or your capability to communicate. Your style, your energy, the way you show up to communication in key moments might look different than somebody who has an extroverted energy, an extroverted personality, but that is not the point. You can communicate extremely well at any point on the extroverted, introverted dimension. And so, yeah, I just tell them these are completely different ideas. Forget that. Some of the best communicators in the world are introverts. Some of the other best communicators in the world are extroverts. It doesn't matter. Now let's get to work becoming better communicators.

Speaker 2: 17:14

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Speaker 1: 18:36

For Zach White. Personally, I think if you were to go ask my peer group or my bosses early in my career, they would have said I was above average in just general presence and communication acumen. At that time I had that advantage. Now that did not come without significant effort, through high school, college and focusing on that as a skill set. Because, again, the training and the culture and the environment of engineering, even if you are biased towards extraversion or communication, it can pull you into a pattern of behavior that's not great when it comes to communication skills at work. But I was probably above average. Now where I struggled, jen, is that my communications skill set the actual what was said like how I communicated was often driven from a place of ego or pride or trying to prove something. So while I was comfortable at the front of the room and I was able to share my ideas, I was not the quiet person who'd never contributed. The thing that was absolutely broken in the way that I showed up to these key moments was that I had a fixed mindset.

Speaker 1: 19:56

I had this belief that I needed everybody to know how smart I was. I needed to prove to my boss that I had something of value to contribute, and so a lot of my communication was not rooted in great listening to your point I was not listening to understand. I was listening to reply.

Speaker 1: 20:15

I wasn't presenting to create value with the team. I was presenting to show everybody what value I could bring. And that's where I really struggled early in my career was. Let's just be honest, I was just called what is my ego was in the way.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Wow, that's a really hard lesson to learn. Did you have any good mentors or any of your professors who helped you, maybe in a gentle way, understand that, or I don't know, maybe in not so gentle of a way, like when was the first time you recognized? Oh man, this is an issue and I gotta do something about this ego thing when I'm communicating with others, because it's not working. Did you have a moment where it was a moment of clarity, jen.

Speaker 1: 21:03

That moment came with my first coach, who I mentioned earlier. But before that, let me back up really quick, because this is something people who aspire to be great leaders need to know. Early in my career, there were times when I was rewarded for that behavior, okay, and I actually got to this idea that, oh, this is what people want and need, because this hero, lone wolf, I can get it done, I'll tackle it, I've got what it takes, et cetera. Frankly, when you can be the one who steps up and solve the problem when you're in a crisis mode and you're firefighting, a lot of times other managers and leaders above you who also don't have the acumen or the leadership skills or the communication skills, they just say, oh, you can do it. Like, go for it. And so I actually reinforced this as a good thing at the beginning, which was not great. My coach was the one who highlighted for me hey, zach, what's going on with these monologues in your approach?

Speaker 1: 22:06

Tell me more about why you feel so compelled to keep talking and sharing all these things. This was during a coaching session, right? We're not even presenting this wasn't like in a meeting. This was just in a one-on-one, and Yashid asked a simple question and instead of delivering a simple answer, I would go on these five and 10 minute monologues and she called me out. It's like, Zach, what? I asked you this and you've been talking for five minutes about this, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus and I still don't have the answer. And we never actually got to the answer exactly. You talked around it and you showed off your knowledge, you told me about all these things, but you didn't actually answer my question. And that's when it hit me really heavy that, even with a coach who I had paid to help me grow, I was trying to show off and improve or prove something to her, and that was the like, oh my goodness. And then suddenly I saw it everywhere. I saw it in the way I wrote emails.

Speaker 1: 23:07

I saw it in the way that I would speak in meetings, how I delivered information in one-on-ones with my boss, it was like ooh, okay, I got work to do.

Speaker 2: 23:18

That reminds me I'm laughing a little bit because I talk a lot about communication styles and typically you'll have a dominant communication style and usually anyone in the engineering field typically will end up having the process-oriented dominant communication style. And it sounds exactly like what you're describing Someone who likes to explore the pros and the cons, the good and the bad. They can be quite verbose. They like to make sure that you understand all of the details in the story before actually getting to the point. And if you have someone who is more action-oriented, someone who's more direct, they're like just start with the conclusion first. Just give me what is your recommendation and don't give me all five of them. What is your one recommendation that we need to get into? That's exactly what it sounds like. I've seen it so many times over and over again. Yeah, engineering tends to be in that process-oriented type of communication style.

Speaker 1: 24:27

You're absolutely right. You'll ask them tell me what you're most frustrated about in your career right now. Maybe I bring in a new client, we're onboarding and let's get all the problems out on the table. This is the same person who will give you well, I'm frustrated about this, but I don't want you to think I'm only frustrated. There's some good things happening too, and they'll list five of those.

Speaker 1: 24:45

It's like okay you don't have to justify everything. And yeah, so, jen, you're totally right. And knowing that about yourself, which is by working with a coach like yourself and going through these programs or joining our program if you're an engineer, it's so helpful to shine a light on these things that right now are just happening on autopilot for you.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Oh yeah, yeah, it's great to have some clarity, because then it gives you something. Hey, you're a fixer, right? You like to identify the problem and now, what are some solutions? What can we do to solve this problem? This is, classically, exactly what you can do in order to improve those communication skills. So let's talk about the idea of burnout for a little while, because I know that is one of the things that you talk about in your coaching and I'm pretty sure you have talked about it a lot in your own podcast, that go getter attitude. It's a great thing to have. We admire hard work. It's not gonna happen on its own. We all understand exactly what it is that's good about working hard and having goals and having a plan to achieve those goals. But tell me a little bit about what is it about burnout that you have conversations with your clients, because I'm sure you have a lot of them walking through the door that are that's basically what they're doing. They're suffering from burnout and they've gotta make some difficult choices. How did those conversations go?

Speaker 1: 26:15

Jen, the first thing I want everyone to know about burnout is that it's not only that rock bottom moment when you've completely run out of gas. You know that's what everybody looks at and sort of the stories that get lifted up is so and so is burned out. You know they're literally seeing their doctor because of anxiety or stress or they had to take a leave of absence and you know, or I quit my job one day, I just upped and quit because I was completely burned out. Burnout begins the moment that you're burning energy faster than you're filling the tank and that's the cycle, because now you're in this downward vicious cycle and it doesn't correct itself without intention and making changes. And so that's the first thing that's important Now to relate this to communication, because burnout can show up in a lot of ways. But the thing that I coach all my clients on is to recognize that your goals in your career. You know you wanna get promoted, you wanna get that top performance rating and the bigger bonus at the end of the year, whatever those goals are for you, we tend to come into our careers when we're an individual contributor focusing on results, and most corporations really focus on that piece. You know, deliver what you've been hired to deliver, go, deliver great results. And so we hustle and grind and hustle and learn about how to deliver more results and bigger results and better results.

Speaker 1: 27:46

Well, the problem is, at the beginning of your career you might get promoted for that. Those first couple of promotions you can get by on the back of your results alone. But the truth is, to get to a place beyond those first promotions or two, to be a manager, director, or to make it ever to the C-suite, you don't get those opportunities by results alone. You get those opportunities based on your reputation. And my good friend Rory Vade and taught me the formula for reputation and being an engineer, I love formula Jen. So it's really simple your reputation is equal to your results multiplied by your reach. Reputation equals results, times reach. So you do need results. If you can't deliver in your career, then you're not gonna get the opportunities. You do need results. But where we burn out is when we keep trying to deliver more and more and more results, but you have no reach.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Meaning nobody actually knows about the great work that you're doing, nobody has trust in you, nobody has a sense of connection to you, and so you don't have any reputation in the organization, and the person who gets promoted is the person who has both. So your ability to build great relationships, to self promote authentically without coming across like an arrogant prick your ability to do these things is really important, and, just like not all results are created equal, you can do a lot of work and deliver no value. You can also know a lot of people and have no real reach, no strong relationships, no sponsors, no mentors, no people that are helping you get where you wanna go, and so that's where this communication piece is so critical. If you wanna get big results without burning out, you need to know which results matter and stop working 80 hours a week, and you need to know how to communicate so that you build that reach and do it in a way that's impactful and influential. Otherwise, you're just networking all the time, but you're not actually getting anywhere.

Speaker 1: 29:57

And all of that leads to the burnout, so I hope that helps explain it. You know, maybe the mathematical lens in me comes out, but we need both sides and communication is non-negotiable if you wanna accelerate.

Speaker 2: 30:09

Absolutely. How does one begin, though? I'm sure you know, if I'm a young person just starting out and I'm hearing everything that makes sense, you know I need to make sure that I'm reaching out, I'm developing the relationships and I'm, you know, being mindful of how much effort I'm putting into things because goals are good. How do I break this down so I can really make sure that I'm moving forward in an effective way, you know? So what advice do you give in terms of let's take the relationships first? You know, do I have to be friends with everybody in the office If I'm gonna be strategic? Do you have recommendations on the strategy? You know how do I look for a mentor? How do I ask if somebody would be my mentor?

Speaker 2: 31:03

You know what are some of those conversations how do those sound when you have those with some of the junior engineers?

Speaker 1: 31:11

Absolutely so. Let's get really tactical in what to do, and there's two different sides of the coin that we wanna focus on. We'll maybe give a couple tips on both sides. One is the proactive building of positive relationships that will help you to accelerate your career.

Speaker 1: 31:26

The other side of the coin is dealing with the challenges of a bad relationship or something that's not working, and knowing how to deal with that as well. Because the kicker, jen, is, you can have a lot of people who like you at work and if that one critical person says, nope, jen is not promotable for this reason then guess what?

Speaker 1: 31:47

you're done, you're not promotable, and so it's really important to pay attention to both sides. First, on the positive side, let's talk about what to do here. I love that you mentioned mentorship. I'm a big believer in having a tribe of mentors, not just one, many A mentor who can help you in every area of your career development, and maybe multiple around the areas that are really critical, and I know it takes time and energy and effort, but it returns on that time investment 100-fold. So mentorship, we overcomplicate. Again back to the Zach. What's the script?

Speaker 2: 32:25

I would just encourage everyone to say look, it's not that hard.

Speaker 1: 32:29

I want you to think about one level above your boss. That's as far as we need to go. If you're a junior engineer, you don't need your mentor to be the CTO. Let's just look for one level above your boss and we're gonna send those people. Find the org chart, find their email addresses, and we're gonna send those people a really simple note Hi, so and so my name is Zach.

Speaker 1: 32:52

I'm a junior engineer in this team and, if you're open to it, I would really be excited to just have 10 minutes of your time, or 15 minutes of your time, to ask you a few questions for my own growth and career development. I've been told by several people in the organization that you're an amazing mentor and I would be totally honored if I could just have a few minutes of your time. I would be as flexible as I can be around your schedule. I'm sure you're so busy. Would you be open to a conversation? That's it. We're not gonna send the agenda, we're not gonna send the questions. We're gonna appeal to that part of them that wants to give back, which, jen, we all love to be able to share our own insights and wisdom.

Speaker 1: 33:36

People enjoy giving back to people who are not as far along the road as they're on, and I would send that note to 20 people, like, don't be bashful about sending it, let's reach out and set up those conversations. And then here's the only tip I'll give for those mentorship meetings Come with great questions, but always finish with these two questions. This is, to me, the most important part. Most people focus on how do I start the conversation. They're afraid to step into the room and what to say first. Honestly, if you just come with great energy and authentic curiosity, it's gonna go great, but I always finish with these two questions. First is Jen, thank you so much for your time today. This has been tremendously valuable for me. Would you be open to me connecting with you again for another conversation in the future if I ever have any more questions?

Speaker 2: 34:31

That's right, keep that door open.

Speaker 1: 34:33

Open the door now. That's right. Open the door while I'm already in the room, Because it's 10 times more likely that they'll say yes to another meeting with you if they've already said yes to you face to face in this conversation. Or even if it's over the phone or Zoom right. So that's question one, jen.

Speaker 2: 34:49

I've never had somebody say no to me for that literally, yeah, yeah, you almost have to be in a chair. You approach it that way. I mean there's so much grace and thankfulness and just being appreciative for that time. Yeah, totally, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 35:04

So open the door for another chat. And then the second is and Jen, you added so much value to me today. I was wondering if there's anyone else in the company, or even outside our company who you know, that might have a different or additional perspective about what you shared with me today, because I'm really hungry to develop in my career as fast as I can and as much as I can. Who else do you think I might want to connect with?

Speaker 2: 35:34

If you've read my book Cracking the Rich Code, you know it is chock full of fantastic advice from top thought leaders and super successful entrepreneurs from around the world. How would you like to be a member of an exclusive community that provides that same how-to content from those same leaders? What if you were able to attend member only live events and interact with them? I'd like to invite you to join the Rich Code Club. It will change the way you think about yourself, your money and your life. It's the only social media platform purely focused on helping you grow. Join the Rich Code Club today for free by clicking on the link in the show notes ["The Rich Code Club"]. Yeah, that is a fantastic question. You're branching out. There's that networking that's happening. That's right.

Speaker 1: 36:32

Just get that opportunity and they may say you know what, jen, or you know what, here's the person who's actually even better in that department that you're in. I would definitely. You know what. Let me send an email. I'm gonna connect you to them right now. You'll be amazed how fast those things open up. So, mentorship if you take one thing away from this conversation, go start connecting, build that tribe of mentors, meet with them as often as you can. Create capacity to meet with them, and they're willing. It's such a big asset.

Speaker 2: 37:00

Yeah, that's wonderful, and when that connection is made, it is so invaluable. Be prepared, though Some might say no. Some might say no for a whole host of reasons, and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 37:12

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 37:13

That's okay if they say no. That's why I think it's really great advice that you send out multiple messages so that you can reach out to as many people as you can.

Speaker 1: 37:23

That's right. If they say no, it's not about you, it's you know they're busy, they got things to do. Don't take it personally, it's okay. And by the way, just this they might say no today, reach out again in six months, ask again. All right, it's a no for now, it doesn't mean no forever. Yeah. Mentorship.

Speaker 1: 37:42

Let's go to the other side of the coin, then One of the things that nobody likes to do is have the hard conversations, and you know, my company is Oasis of Courage, and that's for a reason that the word courage is in the title of our company named Jen, because if you wanna make a big impact in the world, you're going to need courage in your life to get out of your comfort zone to do hard things, and having hard conversations is one of those things. So there's something in technology and engineering a phrase that we use and it shows up in management in any department any discipline that anything you can't measure, you can't manage.

Speaker 1: 38:25

Right, so it doesn't matter if you're an engineer or you work in sales or you work in HR. If you can't measure it, then you can't manage it, and that's something we focus on. A lot is measurement. Well, here's the communication corollary to that principle. Anything that can't be mentioned can't be managed. Love it. If something is kept secret, it's taboo, it's too scary to talk about, or I'm uncomfortable talking about it, or I'm too afraid to talk about it. If I'm unwilling to mention it and the other person doesn't have the courage to mention it, then there's nothing we can do to solve it. We can't manage it.

Speaker 1: 39:08

And so I would just encourage people to really focus on listening to your intuition when there's a relationship that's not working and it doesn't matter if you're the most introverted engineer on the planet or the most extroverted salesperson on the planet we all have this internal circuitry that just feels it. We just know when our relationship with somebody is not in the right place. It feels weird, it feels yucky, it's sticky. We can't really look each other in the eye. We don't say anything when we pass each other in the halls. You know what's going on, that's right. Or maybe you're upset at your boss, your boss is micromanaging you, or they said something that really hurt your feelings and you're upset about it and you can tell they're oblivious.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Whatever that situation is, if you take one other tactical action away, it's to have the courage to have what I call the 10 minute uncomfortable conversations. And my coach tells me Jen, I still believe this, zach, you are 10, 10 minute uncomfortable conversations away from the next level in your life. It's almost like just look for them. Where's that next place where I need to have that hard conversation? They don't need to be long, but they need to be courageous and direct, that radical candor spirit. And if you'll go have those conversations, it is rocket fuel for your career and for your life and, honestly, for your happiness, jen, when you get that stuff out of the way. So that's the task is to go have them.

Speaker 1: 40:44

Now I know the immediate question is like well, how, what do I say? What do I do? That's right At the end of the day. Here's the thing Energy before strategy, energy before strategy. So, jen, and I could give you all the tips and tricks and scripts in the world, but the script won't work if your energy is wrong. So only focus on one thing Lead with generosity, lead with positive energy, come with assuming best intent and just be willing to say hey, jen, I just want to have a quick chat with you. Would you be willing for me to share some feedback about how that meeting last week went, because it really kind of hurt my feelings.

Speaker 2: 41:24

That's right.

Speaker 1: 41:25

That's right.

Speaker 2: 41:26

And I like to remind others, when we talk about having difficult conversations is when you think about it. If you're not willing to have that conversation, you're really denying yourself and you're denying the other person the possibilities. A lot of times we got to get through that icky stuff to get to what is amazing on the other side and all too often we feed in our own perceptions, our own assumptions about what's going on in this relationship. But if we can just open the door to having that conversation and being open to listening to the other person, to try to understand what's going on from their perspective, without attacking them as an individual, it's really a shame. You do deny yourself that opportunity. And if you stay mad at someone, whether you know what you're mad at them about or not, it really doesn't even matter. To just not have that opportunity is really a shame.

Speaker 1: 42:31

So I agree, that's so good.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Yeah, I encourage you, just try it. Open the door, come from a place of openness and curiosity With good intentions. I want this to work out and I want us to figure this out and that's the most important. That's the best thing that you can do for any of those relationships.

Speaker 1: 42:50

Jen, my lizard brain always wants to avoid that conversation.

Speaker 2: 42:55

And it always will. Oh, don't we all Right, it always will. Could it all be just rainbows and butterflies?

Speaker 1: 43:00

If only right. But here's the thing Avoidance leads to isolation, and isolation is the enemy of excellence.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:11

And so it's just like if you feel that temptation, like, oh, I'm just going to dodge this person, I'm just going to avoid that, I'm not going to talk to them, you got to turn that around. Have the courage to say no, I won't isolate, because that denies possibility, it's the enemy of excellence, and I won't be my best self if I don't have this conversation.

Speaker 2: 43:31

Yeah, absolutely. It's a scary thing, it is and it's not easy, and I know conflict is one of those things. It depends on your upbringing, your experience. A lot of people nine times out of 10, if you ask them to think of a word connected to the word conflict, they're going to come up with something negative. There's going to be some type of a negative meaning. I do this in my workshops. I'll ask them to write down a word connected to conflict and I mean there's some pretty awful sad stuff that comes out on those little sticky notes. I even had one person put down violence one time in connection. I was like, wow, yeah, I'm going to be in a place really quick. There's only been a handful of people, and all the times I've done that, that they would actually write down something like opportunity or connection. It's a different way of looking at conflict.

Speaker 2: 44:30

It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's something that in any relationship honestly, if it's a healthy relationship you're going to have it out every now and again. You're going to have to because you're human. You're going to have disagreements, and the workplace is no different. The longer you work with somebody, the more likely you're going to run across something that you're going to have a disagreement about.

Speaker 1: 44:57

So if you don't, then you got to ask yourself are you really engaging in the workplace?

Speaker 2: 45:02

Yes.

Speaker 1: 45:03

At some level this is bound to happen, and if it's never happening, then that means the problem probably is you. You're not actually getting in there and making a difference in a way where your opinion's being heard and everything else. I know I said I wouldn't give a script, Jen, because it's not about the script, but I will give one little hack on this because it's helped me immensely, immensely in my life. If you don't know what to say in that hard conversation, then that is exactly what you should say first.

Speaker 2: 45:32

Yes.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Hey, jen, I really appreciate you taking time for this conversation and I'm going to be completely honest with you. I really don't even know what to say here and if I completely screw this up or piss you off or something, I just want to apologize in advance. This is way out of my comfort zone and I really don't know how to do this. So I'm just going to go for it and then start talking. If you'll just say that upfront, wow, it diffuses so much of the energy and it creates this sense of permission to just be wrong or get it wrong, and now we can collaborate and be curious together. So that's my little hack Anytime I don't know what to say, I literally just say I don't know what to say and then keep talking.

Speaker 2: 46:13

Yeah, and what a sense of relief for the other person when that happens as well, because I guarantee you it's most likely they don't know what in the hell to say either. That's right, it's a great starting point. Hey look, we have something in common.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Neither one of us know what to do.

Speaker 2: 46:31

But neither one of us. That's a great starting point, so that's a great way to begin that conversation and keep it open for the dialogue. That's wonderful, absolutely wonderful. So what are your next steps? You made a big change, going from the engineering world and now you own your own company. You're doing a lot of coaching, you have a podcast. What's next for you? I mean, I know that you probably have something else brewing, something that you've been wanting to get to, because you don't seem like you're the kind of guy that's just going to sit there and just be satisfied with how things are going now.

Speaker 1: 47:14

No, not at all, Jen. Thanks for asking that. I love talking about dreams and vision.

Speaker 1: 47:19

I could do this all day. You're right. My focus has shifted from being an engineer to supporting these engineering leaders to create the career of their dreams and the life of their dreams. These last four years of doing this work full-time has really been about testing and discovering. Is the system, is this blueprint that we've created? Does it create the results that these leaders need? The cool part is I can confidently say yeah, it works. It's unreal. We've had so many transformational stories, so where am I now? It's essentially looking at what we've created and saying how do we get this in the hands of as many engineering and technology leaders as possible? Because, whether you're burned out today or what could be the cases, you're at that early stage of burnout where you are burning fuel faster than you're filling the tank, but you're not aware of it yet. If you had these skills and strategies up front, you could avoid the rock bottom that I did.

Speaker 1: 48:22

We're in a scale-up mode here at Oasis of Courage. We want to become the household name. If you're an engineering leader and you want personal growth and development to support your career, that this is where you turn. And, frankly, organizations want to provide this for their teams and employees. But internal training and internal coaching is always limited by the incentives and the context of that culture and that workplace and the things that shareholders are expecting of that workplace. It's never the same to talk to somebody internally as it is to have this place completely designed around helping you as an individual to create the life that you want to create, independent of what company it is that you work at. And so, yeah, that's what we're doing and that looks like a lot of different things. We've launched live events. We're scaling up our coaching programs, training coaches in this methodology of lifestyle engineering.

Speaker 1: 49:20

A lot of cool things are happening, but this will be my primary focus for you know, until there's a different calling on my life is let's go help as many engineers as we can.

Speaker 2: 49:30

Yeah, it's a great feeling knowing that, even if there's just one person who can take away something from this conversation and you know that it's going to make a huge impact on the quality of their life and the workplace at home, whatever it is, it's well worth the conversation that we're having. So do you go into organizations and deliver workshops or do you typically work one-on-one?

Speaker 1: 50:00

It's both, it is both and, like I mentioned a moment ago, when the company is paying and the company is the client, you know that creates a certain context of what's possible for those engagements. When the engineering leader themselves is the client, you know that opens the door to some different things. And so we do both. I love both. I mean it's super fun to go into a company and facilitate a workshop and help people with some of these fundamentals, you know, whether it's leadership skills or how to step into that first management job, or, you know, communication, one-on-one for engineers, whatever that might be. But it's also fun to take that individual who says, Zach, I want more in my life.

Speaker 1: 50:43

I don't know if I can do it in this company or not. In fact, I'm not even sure it matters about the company. I need to get into the heart of this for myself. How can I get to that next level and just dig in and unlock that for them? That's super fun too. So we do both, and it just kind of depends on what the needs are and, of course, my capacity to be in all places at the same time.

Speaker 2: 51:05

That's right. You've got to get to the place where we have clones.

Speaker 1: 51:09

right there's some engineer out there. The clone department is hard at work. No, actually, Jen. I mean we just want to find those other like-minded coaches who can support this work, because when we talked about ego early on this call, the one thing I have appreciatively learned now is that I am not always the smartest person in the room, and we just want to find those people who share our vision, share our passion and get them involved and let them go change lives.

Speaker 2: 51:36

you know, while I can talk to you, yeah, that's one of the things I love about doing a podcast. You know, I get to interview so many people and every single conversation I have ends up being a meaningful conversation, and I learned something new every single time, and so I think it's just absolutely wonderful to be able to have a platform like this and to reach out to other coaches. You know anyone else who has just a tool, or I don't like to call them a trick, but something that we can try. You know, communication is a skill, just like any other skill. We got to work at it to get better at it, and so that means we're going to make some mistakes along the way, but as long as we keep trying it and we keep working at it you know that's the name of the game. Right there it's. You know, we're not going to be perfect right out of the gate. We're never going to be perfect. As a matter of fact, what works in one scenario will not work in another scenario.

Speaker 1: 52:31

I haven't found that perfect point yet myself, so if any of your listeners have, please email me. I'd love to meet you. But yeah, you know, we master what we practice. It's like you said. And so just ask yourself what am I practicing? What did I practice today? And if I'm not practicing being the version of myself that I want to be, then I need to take action or I'll never get there.

Speaker 2: 52:52

Yeah, so before we get to all of your contact info, because I want to make sure that the audience can get all of that from you, is there anything that we were not able to get to yet? Is there a point that you wanted to make sure that you got across to the listeners today, before we begin wrapping it up?

Speaker 1: 53:15

Jin, I'll just say this in a way, I want to acknowledge you and the amazing work that you're doing with this podcast in your business, as a leader, as a coach. But if anybody thinks about this conversation and you want to take action in your own life, you know, I think about one of my clients. His name was Eric and for him it was as simple as anxiety and stress around interviewing.

Speaker 1: 53:38

You know a key moment, a key form of communication, and he had bombed some interviews. He wasn't getting offers and this was a real barrier for him to get to where he wanted to go. And just by fixing that one piece, you know his mindset, his approach, his strategies, how he showed up in interviews. In that one change on his communication skills, he landed a dream job. He's super excited. He increased in salary, increase in bonuses. Everything changed for him just in that one piece.

Speaker 1: 54:13

And so ask yourself what is the place where, if I could just take my communication skills to that next level, just go one step up, that it would unlock something that right now is impossible for me. And I really do believe that communication is one of those types of skills that there is a place for you right now where, if you could take a step forward in your ability to communicate, it would truly unlock a new possibility for you. So find that thing and then reach out to Jen and get help and go tackle it, because it makes such a massive difference. And that's just my heart for everyone who's listening today is don't just be passive, take action, find that place for you and go get help.

Speaker 2: 54:55

That's right. It's so empowering, so empowering to be able to do that, to take control of that. Thank you so much for that. How do we get in touch with you? What are all of your socials? What's the best way to get in contact, to reach you?

Speaker 1: 55:11

Yeah, well, if any of this resonates for you and thank you for getting this far into our live show and on the podcast here the best way, the easiest way, to get to know Zach White better is on my podcast. So wherever you're consuming this, we're there to. It's the Happy Engineer podcast and would love for you to get to know more about how to build your career, balance your life, be happy along the way. So we're everywhere you listen to podcasts. It's also the HappyEngineerPodcastcom if you want to check us out online. But also, jen, I would be honored to give somebody an opportunity for free coaching.

Speaker 1: 55:47

If you're in the STEM fields, if you really do think that what I do at Oasis of Courage is something you need, then please reach out. I'd be honored to give you a free coaching session. We'll really dig deep into what you need, help identify those barriers and, whether you work with us or not, it's going to be a really powerful time for you. I can promise you that. So if that interests you and you're listening right now, grab your phone. Text the word lifestyle Just that one word altogether, no spaces. It's lifestyle to 55444. So if you send that text to us, we'll get you the information. You need to book a session and we'd give you 75 minutes of free coaching. It's a tremendous opportunity. Be honored to give that to any of your listeners who have stuck with us to this point in the conversation. So lifestyle 55444.

Speaker 2: 56:32

That is amazing. Y'all, you better, you better take advantage of that offer. It doesn't get any better than that. I mean, come on, that's so exciting. I will make sure that all of that information, they're able to see it in the show notes providing links. You know that you have, and I'll make sure to have that number in there as well, with lifestyle.

Speaker 2: 56:57

That's what they text to you so they can get in there and get some coaching. Such an incredible, valuable experience. I highly highly recommend it. Well, you know what? This has been an amazing time. I am so thankful that you agreed to be a guest on my show. I've learned so much from you and it's just been a really great conversation. I'm so thankful that you made time for this and that you shared some of your knowledge and your experience with my listeners. Thank you very much for that.

Speaker 1: 57:26

Jen, you're welcome. I mean, jen, you're great, so how could it not be a great conversation? And I really loved it.

Speaker 2: 57:32

Thank you for the change.

Speaker 1: 57:36

Really. I mean, it is a pleasure to be here, and I hope that your listeners found something they can take action on and go change their lives, because I know that's why you're here and I am as well. So thanks again for the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 57:47

Absolutely All right, everyone, have a great rest of your day and we will talk next time. Bye, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review.