Practicing Generous Communication with Sharyl West Loeung

Imagine engaging in a conversation where everyone feels heard, understood, and connected. Does that seem far-fetched? It doesn't have to be. Today's episode features Sharyl West Loeung, co-founder of Kardia House Consulting, who takes us on a journey through the concept of generous communication, a method that helps resist polarization and emphasizes connection during challenging conversations. We uncover the nuances of practicing generous listening, creating open spaces for differing opinions, and recognizing the appropriate time for pushback.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Beds for connections are really about being seen, heard, understood, etc. And so, even if it's really simple stuff, we all have things in our past where those things weren't met, and it get triggered, whether we're aware of them or not. Some people have had enough therapy to know that it goes back to their childhood and other people don't. And even if you do, it doesn't really make it that much easier. And so what happens is you're in the middle of a conversation and suddenly you don't feel like you're being heard, you don't feel like you're being seen, you feel like you're being misunderstood, and our responses are usually one of two it's to take an offensive or a defensive posture. So whichever one you're prone to and it can be either, but we forget that the other person in communication is doing the same bitty, and so they need something and they're trying to be seen, heard, understood, and so they also either take an offensive or defensive posture.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Quite the revelation, isn't it? It's crucial to remember that the other person in the conversation is also seeking to be seen and heard, which that can completely change how we approach and navigate difficult discussions. This is Cheryl Lewin, co-founder of Cardia House Consulting. She focuses on a concept called generous communication as a means to resist polarization. When I first met Cheryl, I knew we would have a fantastic conversation. We're both comm majors with backgrounds in speech, communication and communication theory. We're both TEDx speakers and we both enjoy consulting and coaching. I want you to know that if you're struggling to feel heard and understood in your conversations, you are not alone. In this episode, I speak with Cheryl about the complex dynamics of communication, revealing how we all bid for connection. I hope you enjoy.

Speaker 2: 2:02

Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong, so you know one of the things that I love to talk about, of course, is how do we get through difficult conversations. Another thing I love to talk about is public speaking, the TEDx stage, and a third thing I love to talk about, of course, is how do we express ourselves effectively through writing. So I have the perfect guest for the show today, because she is an expert in all three. We're going to discuss the through line, what will take us through all of those different aspects of communication. I really want you to pay close attention to this episode. Get your notebooks out just like you're in class, because I have a feeling that we are going to explore a lot. We're going to discover a lot. We are going to learn a hell of a lot about communication during this episode. I want to extend a special, special welcome to my guest, cheryl Luhann. Thank you so much for being here, cheryl.

Speaker 1: 3:27

Thanks for having me. You just named all my favorite things.

Speaker 2: 3:29

I'm so excited now I know with both of us having that calm background. I'm just going to warn you, those of you who are listening right now just relax, take a seat back, because this is probably going to be a really long conversation, because when Cheryl and I get going talking about calm stuff, you know this is what we do, this is what we love. So I really want you to be able to enjoy this conversation and get a lot out of it. So, Cheryl, why don't you just take a moment for the listeners, because you do have an extensive background in communication. Would you mind just introducing yourself to the listener and giving them a brief look at your journey and how have you gotten to where you are today in the communication industry?

Speaker 1: 4:20

I can't help but say that I started in second grade and, as silly as that sounds, I fell in love with speech at a poetry contest in the second grade and I wasn't necessarily an outgoing kid, but I loved to emote through words and to write. Creative writing became something important to me as an outlet. I was a high school speech debate kid, theater kid, and I went to college and studied communication theory in political science and love to write. Give me an essay. Don't put multiple choice in front of me. That's too many options to talk myself out of. So I also went to seminary and studied preaching and the art of taking texts and figuring out how to communicate old texts and making them new was just fascinating to me. And I continued to coach speech and debate through college and also judging and help start programs afterwards.

Speaker 1: 5:20

And then, as I moved on, I also was able to continue preaching and speaking, done TEDx, I've worked for some incredible coaches, done my own coaching and then, during the pandemic, decided to start my own business.

Speaker 1: 5:37

And then higher education, multicultural affairs and a large D1 school, and so that meant I was bringing in other speakers, big name speakers, to speak and then I just really wanted to be on the stage myself and it was great to learn event planning.

Speaker 1: 5:52

It was great to be a part of that. I've done a lot of event planning but it was really nice to be able to start to coach my own speakers, start to really be in the industry in those ways, and I've always continued to write, care a lot about social change and social issues and so, whether it was blogging articles just to be kind of in the middle of what was happening, whether it was as a speaker or as a writer, and so now I'm worth my own LLC and we write, whether it's in our blog or helping other authors publish books or own books, and then I produce shows for speakers to be able to say the things that are important to them and tell their stories and kind of this ethically oriented concepts of what is happening in the world and how do I contribute to my story into the greater story.

Speaker 2: 6:47

Yes, it's all about the storytelling and making that connection with your audience, whether it's an audience of one or an audience of thousands. Comnerds unite. This is going to be such a fantastic conversation. I'm so excited.

Speaker 2: 7:05

One of the things that I have been thinking a lot about lately because, as a media analyst, I have to get enmeshed in the news on a daily basis, and one of the things that you and I have talked about before is generous communications. So I'd like to take a little bit of time to talk about that idea of generous communication, and then I would like to flow into maybe talking a little bit about the writing and the publishing and then flow into the speaking aspect of what you do and how you coach others to be able to present themselves and their message effectively On the stage. I think this will be a fantastic way to bring everything together, and so whoever is listening to this right now, I want them to be able to gather lots of little golden nuggets. That's going to help them become a more competent and confident communicator. But I know for me, one of my biggest struggles and look, I've been doing this for over 30 years, y'all Okay, I've been in communication for a really long time. And I know my struggle is.

Speaker 2: 8:18

I am such a logical thinker. I find myself naturally gravitating toward. Even if I agree with you, I will find myself thinking of the, the argument right? Well, let's check ourselves. You know, because sometimes I do, in my eagerness to check my own bias, I will try to think of well, what would the other argument be? And am I being fair in this? And I will admit that sometimes I think, because I'm so logical, I will. I won't focus so much on the empathy part or the, trying to just put myself in their shoes and try to see from their perspective. How do you, do you find that you have a similar struggle in communication? Or do you go on the other side of communication where you find it's easier, where you can have the the empathy aspect of communication, but less so of the pushback part of communication? How do you feel about that? Because I'm very upfront with with my own challenges.

Speaker 1: 9:29

Yes, yes, and I would say that, having spent so long in the debate community and for people who don't know a lot about debate, you don't used to get to say, oh, this is the side of the argument that I'm on, and so I go in and I debate that all day. You go in and you do both sides of whatever the topic is equally in rounds, and so you are trained to think about both sides of an argument, and so it is sometimes very hard to get out of your head and decide what you do think and to not play devil's advocate all day long, which is great in terms of thinking about other perspectives, to making sure that what you think really is solid, to know that there's gray areas. However, not everyone else in the world thinks that way, has been trained to think that way. In fact, very few people have, and so what I have learned is that, just because my brain wants to work that way, it is not fair to expect anyone else's to, and it's not fair to uninvited bring that into a conversation, and so that is a big part of that.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Generosity is to one. Another piece of that is generous listening, and to be able to listen generously without imposing. One of the first aspects of generous communication is not trying to convert someone to my way of thinking. And so if I'm not trying to convert someone to my way of thinking which can be very difficult, I'm just hearing, and I'm doesn't mean I don't get to express what I'm thinking, but it moves us away from what we've been taught, which is a communication, and you don't hear this in a calm class, but you do essentially pick it up. In our society is that communication is a win loss game?

Speaker 1: 11:23

Yeah, and so either I'm winning or I'm losing, and so when you hear someone saying something that's not logical, I need to fix that, I need to help them, I need to sure up this argument. Even if it's someone you like and you want to help the logical side, you haven't been invited into that space, and so the generous listening part is that you're not trying to convert them into either your way of thinking or into particular space at that time, but being generous with that time and space and where they are. So that's kind of that first aspect and that's just like in practice.

Speaker 2: 12:02

It really does take a lot of practice. And how do you know when you're in that space and when you're not in that space? Because it is so loud out there. We have so much noise, especially online and on social media, and now that's bleeding into our real lives. You know offline lives where we have families that are breaking up relationships, that are breaking up friendships. You know that we're like.

Speaker 2: 12:30

You know, I can't even be a friend with you anymore because I can't believe you're a conservative, or I can't believe you're a liberal, or you know like it's all of these. I can't believe you think you feel you know you agree with that, and so when you feel so strongly about a certain topic and in my opinion we're being pushed in those directions, it's being reinforced everywhere we turn how do you stop for a moment and just recognize when is it okay to push back and then when is it time to practice that generous listening? Let me just shut up and just let this person get it out. Even though I disagree with them, I'm just going to let them have this space for the moment.

Speaker 1: 13:19

Two responses. For me, one of the places that I learned that the most is that I spent eight years as a white female white presenting female in a multicultural affairs office, as the only white professional staff member from most of that time, and I was there from 2014 through 2022. So you know what elections took place, covid. There's a lot of heated discussions in our, and one of the things that I had to learn was that there are times when there were conversations that weren't for me. There were conversations that I had opinions about, but they weren't for me to interject in. There are times when people needed to say things to someone who was safe to say them to, that looked like me and I let that be and that that was potentially healing at that time, and then again later, there was a relationship that could happen because I just took those conversations.

Speaker 1: 14:30

Have a lot of stories about things like that, but I want to go back a little bit to some of the why and this is the foundation of generous communication is the understanding that that communication, as its heart, is a bid for connection. We want to something to be understood. We wouldn't be talking if we didn't want you to understand something or to get something or I need to be met. That's why we tell each other things whether it's I'm hungry, or go get this out of the fridge, or here's the directions to this and those needs bits for connections are really about being seen, heard, understood, etc. And so, even if it's really simple stuff, we all have things in our past where those things weren't met and it get triggered, whether we're aware of them or not. Some people have had enough therapy to know that it comes back to their childhood and other people don't. And even if you do, it doesn't really make it that much easier. And so what happens is you're in the middle of a conversation and suddenly you don't feel like you're being heard, you don't feel like you're being seen, you feel like you're being misunderstood, and our responses are usually one of two it's to take an offensive or a defensive posture.

Speaker 1: 15:49

So whichever one you're prone to, and it can be either, but we forget that the other person in communication is doing the same bidding, and so they need something and they're trying to be seen, heard, understood, and so they also either take an offensive or defensive posture. So that can look like raising their voice, it can look passive, aggressive, it can look like withdrawing, and then we all have baggage with people in our lives who have done withdrawing or have done escalations. So a lot of times we're bringing things to that moment that have nothing to do with that moment, but we don't know how to hold that space, and so what we tend to do is find people who will assure us that we are correct, that we're okay, and so we find our teams, and that's how this adversarial model begins. The polarization begins is in the workplace. He believes so-and-so said this, and you know who it is that will agree with you.

Speaker 1: 16:52

And so we create these teams and we get in these adversarial models and, on a brainer scale, we've done this with political issues that aren't really issues, because they're about people, and politics are literally just works of the people and things that have to do with policies regarding people, but we turn them into issues, and so we lose humanity the more we do this, and we forget that it was all about a bid for connection and that we all want a connection.

Speaker 1: 17:23

And so, when we begin to start breaking down, what is the purpose of communication, can we not be a if we stop making every conversation about winning or losing and you become aware it's a lot of mindfulness, work and practice. Am I trying to win this conversation? What happens if I walk away and I don't quote win? What's the worst thing that happens? Right? What if it's not an adversarial model but a communal model, and then the practices that come with that are things like words are neutral until they're not until we give them power, and so is what this person saying to me really what I think it is. Or if I had assigned this power to it.

Speaker 1: 18:22

Certainly where words and I want to be very clear about this that have become destructive, that have become harmful and hurtful, especially when we talk about minoritized communities. But there are also times when we take words to mean things that they don't, because we're signing meaning.

Speaker 1: 18:39

So it becomes about giving neutrality as well as letting our own words have more neutrality and taking the time to have that neutrality. Then there's the practice of listening with non-judgmental presence, which is also very difficult. But it's what? Just what are they saying? There's no judgment, and when I talk about judgment I mean well, I bet what they really mean is I bet what they're trying to get for me is what they said is just what they said, and it's not my business to worry about what they're trying to get from me.

Speaker 1: 19:20

What manipulation might be at play, and you would be surprised how much energy you get back in your life, how much freedom you get back in your life. It's just, if they're after something, they're after something. We'll figure it out later, but for now I'm just gonna take this conversation at face value. They said they were sorry. Okay, they said they would do the thing. Okay, I'm not gonna worry about the fact that the last five times I didn't do the thing. I'm not gonna hold all of that and stew. We're just gonna take this right here in this moment and give this like generosity. So those are some of the things that began to shift.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Yeah, at the core of it all is trust, isn't it Just being able to? I don't wanna say take the wall down, but if we can just lower it a little bit and not be afraid to allow someone to express their opinion and then not take it to the extreme, like you're saying. Sometimes what they're saying is just what they're saying and then it is very difficult to not feed it with our own assumptions, our own perceptions of what may be happening at the moment compared to what has happened in the past. It is a hard, hard thing to do that, to build that trust, to have those types of conversations. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about the win versus losing model. If we have that mindset that communication is winning versus losing, that's a game changer right there in itself and we can just change how we perceive every act of communication that we find ourselves in.

Speaker 2: 21:14

I had one of the most important conversations that I've ever had yesterday with a couple of people over Zoom we come from. It was three of us, and all three of us have different political ideologies, different backgrounds, perceptions of things, opinions about things that are going on in the world today, but we were able to have such an amazing conversation. It was like an honest conversation about one of the most polarizing topics out there and it was about the whole Dylan Mulvaney, a Bud Light kind of things, and we were talking about in the news how it's so polarized in the book of the news that most people consume. You're reading or listening to these hyper vitriolic perceptions of this topic and you're not really hearing or understanding the message that's coming out, just what you were saying. People want to feel like they're being heard, that they're being understood, being acknowledged, and so that goes a long way. It was such a fantastic and I wish for everybody to be able to have a conversation like we had about these really difficult topics.

Speaker 2: 22:42

Show your support by becoming a Com 24-7 insider. Monthly subscriptions begin for as little as $3 a month. Join today and get a shout out on an upcoming episode and receive a special gift from me. To join my insider club, click on the link in the show notes. So what's a first step? We did talk about the importance of listening and we have said that mindset of that win versus losing. Let's not think of communication in that way. We really do have to take a lot of personal responsibility, don't we in every communication scenario that we find ourselves in. That can be a hard pill to swallow, though.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Yeah, my friend, reverend Lea Shade. She talks a lot about the purple zone and one of the best ways you can start to really kind of push yourself but give yourself a chance is to not start with the hot topics, but not the cool topics where there's not a lot at stake. Find something that's kind of warm for you, and only you are gonna know what that is. What's kind of a warm button issue for me is it the story for you and the people that might be in that same camp with you, so that you can have a conversation that will push you a little bit. But isn't that highest level trigger point for you to practice Right? Yeah, so find that and start having some of those conversations to practice some of those things.

Speaker 1: 24:25

The other thing I would say is just to begin some mental awareness. This really, we do consider this a practice, and so asking yourself some questions after every conversation of was I trying to win? Did I do more listening than talking this time? Like, make that the goal, maybe in one particular conversation that you know you have a lot to say and you wanna say a lot, Can I speak?

Speaker 2: 24:58

Not that you're gonna quantify this.

Speaker 1: 25:00

I wanna try to speak 20% less today and then ask yourself afterwards did I actually listen? Not think about what I'm gonna say next, but did I hear more? And what did that do for me? And just so, it's some reflection and some time to really be aware, which is hard because you have to slow down, but it is some intentionality of entering into those conversations. So those are just a couple of tricks and practices that you can do, and you may not wanna start that with your family. It may not be. There's certain people that may not be the best people to start with, but I think we all know what it is. That would be a good area. If there's something in your head they're like I really wanna work on that, then we'll start with that.

Speaker 2: 25:43

Yeah, yeah, and work is the right word.

Speaker 2: 25:47

It takes work, it takes practice, it takes time and it's a messy, messy thing, because the world is a messy place and relationships are messy and so there's not gonna be this one thing, this one trick that you're gonna be able to do, and then, poof, everything is solved.

Speaker 2: 26:08

I mean, this is a tough thing to do, to try to learn how to be a really effective communicator and armed with the knowledge that maybe I do come with the idea of winning and that's a big step right there. Just being aware of that, I highly recommend if anybody who's listening to this conversation, if you want to really try to push yourself in that direction, maybe you're suddenly becoming aware. Maybe I do approach my conversations more in a win versus lose mindset, maybe I do talk more than I listen in the conversations that I have, maybe I do come to a conclusion faster than what I probably should. I recommend just taking a journal and really focusing, really pinpointing on one of these things and, like Cheryl said, if you wanna just say I'm gonna try to maybe talk 20% less today, let's see how it goes, and then at the end of the day, did you do great, did you not do so, great, and then you just try it again, because that's all this is, is just we're practicing it over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: 27:27

Yeah, this is something that we my business partner and I, dr Josh Ritter developed in a workplace that was pushing us in a lot of ways that we needed to find a different way, and so it's been developed over time and our own change of hearts and we started to realize, as we were talking to other people about how we were doing what we were doing. This sort of framework came out of it, but absolutely a lot of work, and I wanted to just quickly say it sounds maybe a little woo-woo, but where it came from was. Another concept is we were leading deliberative dialogues If you were familiar with the deliberative democracy movement and so those are community conversations that move towards decisions for communities, such as, should we move the landfill or should we redistrict the schools lines. So it actually comes from being able to make really big decisions. It's not just about sitting in a room and trying to feel better about ourselves, but how do we have meaningful conversations that move to significant changes in our society? So nice.

Speaker 2: 28:48

So this is a journey in communication, and so one of the things I'd like to transition to we all have this journey that we're going through and we all come across these challenges, especially our different communication challenges. And what, if you want to capture this in writing? I mentioned journaling a little bit earlier. It's one of the things I used to be really good at when I was younger and then I kind of fell out of it because when I was younger I lived in a blended family and my step-brother, my step-sister, went into my room and found my diaries and then started reading them and completely just it was an awful experience to feel so exposed and so you really do feel almost naked because of that and that's not a really good feeling. So I got out of journaling for the longest time and I'm getting back into it again because I can feel how it does help me try to think through some of the challenges and as I'm getting back into the journaling, I can really see how just that act of writing out my thoughts is helping me to make sense of things.

Speaker 2: 30:10

Do you recommend, if I want to get my story out, are there certain prompts that you recommend, that anyone who says hey, you know what? I've got a story to tell. I really want to get it out. I'm thinking about maybe even publishing a book. I think everybody has an amazing story inside of them. How do you help them get that out? Is that one of the things that you're doing in this new business venture that you have with your publishing house?

Speaker 1: 30:39

Yeah, so I think one of the things that everyone says is nobody wants to hear my story. That's the first thing. Nobody's gonna read my story. And there's a couple of rebuttals to that is does it matter if you want to tell it? It's a good question. And how do you know? Until you write it?

Speaker 1: 31:10

And that's not just because I'm trying to make money, because I don't actually make tons of money off of these things. That's just not how this works, but it is a block that we all have, that nobody really cares about what I have to say in this big world or what I've experienced, and what we find over and over again is that there's so many people who say, oh, me too, it wants you to get your story out there, that there's somebody who needs to hear it. And if it's one person, then there's others that you just don't know about. And so we've got people writing memoirs who are in their 20s and you think, well, what does a 20-year-old have to say? Well, a lot to some 16 to 18-year-olds, right.

Speaker 1: 32:06

And there are 20-year-olds who have lived more life than some 50-year-olds, and often because of tragedies or other things, and they have things that we all can learn from, whether you're 16 or 60. And I'm really big on intergenerational friendship and cooperation and learning, and so I don't really love part of the industries. Well, yes, you have target audiences, but I also feel like we can all learn from each other and that there are core messages that resonate everywhere, and so that has been something that has been really special to me is to really talk through with people who have an idea and then to dig into what's really underneath this message. What is this core piece that you have to share? And there are universal things that everyone can relate to.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Yeah, yeah, what you just said about intergenerational friendships. That just reminded me. Last night I was doing the you know, the Apple News scrolling. I was going through like what's going on in the world today. I can't remember what the source was, but I do remember there was an article that popped up on my screen. It was talking about the importance of intergenerational friendships in women and just how the Life span, yeah, yeah. So what's your take on that? What are some of the ways that you think you know? How do we learn from one another as women within you know, if we can seek out these intergenerational friendships? What are some of the communication I guess related lessons learned?

Speaker 2: 33:48

It's kind of taken a little twist from the initial ask about writing, but it just made me think about that article that I came across.

Speaker 1: 33:57

Well, Jen, I have a talk and a workshop on this, so way to try to Wow, you know what?

Speaker 2: 34:04

How serendipitous right.

Speaker 1: 34:07

Yes, we are on the same brainwave yes. Yes, so I have a working theory that part of our that generational gaps are the most, or at least I should say, talked about, trained about social identity and DEI work and one of the most divisive social identities that there are that we create these monoliths about boomers or this. You know, gen X can't keep a job. Women also don't know what they want. We forget Gen X all the time. We just have all of these things- I feel like we're the forgotten generation.

Speaker 2: 34:49

I'm Gen X.

Speaker 1: 34:53

And we also have this problem of looking at whoever the youth are as our future hope. We put all of this stuff on them until they do something we don't like and then they're the ban of our existence. They get into that teen 20s and then we just look to the next younger generation to solve everything. My belief is that they're just a mirror of us. They're a mirror of the things that we didn't do, that we wanted to do. They're the mirror of our hopes, our dreams, our failures, and we can't handle looking at it. And we have so much generational trauma if we look through from wars to pandemics, to all the things that we've all been through and we don't, as a society, deal with and so can't handle it, and we just say, well, let's just look at the next generation, but when we can decide they are just us, then we can begin to have this conversation of what can I learn from you? What can you learn from me? Because we are each other and things like climate repair.

Speaker 1: 36:07

We have a generation who has technology that is needed and innovation that's needed, and they have to work together for us to move forward. We've got Gen Zers who are saying no to a lot of things. It's really interesting, but also haven't had the emotional intelligence work that needs to be done and we can just say, well, they're worthless, or start helping them and remember why did they not get that in the first place? So do we all need to be doing this work? And so that's kind of my thought on intergenerational friendship is it's just a mirror of each other. Then what is it that we all need to be doing to be a better society? I think COVID brought that up in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2: 36:55

Yeah, that's really interesting and it does make me think it's kind of a funny trope. Kids these days we will say things like that, but I do think a lot of times we tend to forget that we were pretty similar in a lot of ways In terms of how immature we could be in certain situations. If you see some kids that are out skateboarding wreaking some havoc, or they're on a playground and they're spraying graffiti on a wall somewhere, these are not new things and I'm not saying that they're OK things, but I mean, I think we do need to recognize that every single generation, we all had a tendency to get into a little bit of trouble. We all had a tendency to be. We just want to kind of put the middle finger up to those who are in control or in power. We weren't really interested in being too responsible. Yeah, I want to go out with my friends. I want to go have fun. I think a lot of the things that are a part of growing up are just that. They're just a natural part of growing up.

Speaker 2: 38:15

I do think a challenge that the younger generation today has is that it's being displayed all over the internet and thank God I'm in Gen X and we did not document the things that we got into and the stupid decisions that we made growing up. We made a lot of dumb decisions. At least I know. My friends and I made some really pretty stupid decisions as we were growing up. But I'm just like thank God we didn't document any of that, because what a nightmare that would be. So if you are a younger person and you are now growing up in this world where what was that Jim Carrey movie? That everything was?

Speaker 1: 39:01

Oh, Truman Show.

Speaker 2: 39:02

Yeah, the Truman Show. It's almost like these kids are growing up in their own Truman Show, where even it's just everything is documented for the world to see, and then the snippets that the world sees it's not necessarily the reality that exists out there. What are some steps that we can take? I think intergenerational communication is probably one of those steps, but it just seems like it's such a huge, huge issue that we really need to figure out a way to really reach out and be able to help these kids navigate the world they live in today. What are some of your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 39:49

Yeah, I mean, the technology isn't going anywhere, and so I think fighting that is a losing battle, and to tell them that it's not real isn't helpful either, because it is real to them and we make these comments all the time Because it's true about how much of their brain is actually developed and what they can do in terms of decision making, and no matter what you're trying to instill in values, which is still important. But I think a big part of it is having adults that maybe aren't their parents that they will talk to, and having people that they know are safe to ask those questions and to say I saw this today and I don't know what I feel about this. And that has to start at 7, 8, 9, not 13, 14, 15.

Speaker 1: 40:49

Because, that's what stuff is starting and those conversations have to start, I mean, even with a kindergartner, some of the things that he's asking and seeing. So I think my two things are starting, really young and again this kind of intergenerational communal raising of families that some of our cultures are more prone to than others. So those are some of my thoughts. Yeah you know I like judgmental presence is being able to say you can call, no questions, you can get to you. You can. You know we'll deal with it later.

Speaker 2: 41:31

Yeah, I get what you're saying because it's you know. This also goes back to the personal responsibility part that we were talking about a little bit earlier. You know, if you feel some kind of way about the younger generation, that they are emotionally immature, you know they talk about a lot of things that they don't understand. You know they get overly sensitive about some of these topics, but when was the last time as an adult did I really sit down and have a conversation and listen Kind of like what you were talking about earlier? Employ some of those suggestions that you were saying really listening, get to the heart of it, try to understand where they're coming from and then gently guide them, you know, and also be vulnerable enough to share with them. You know, your thoughts and feelings.

Speaker 2: 42:24

It can't be just a one way thing, but it's. I don't think very many of us are having those types of conversations, and I don't think I think on both ends. If you are in a younger generation, are you really seeking out those types of conversations with adults who are, you know, maybe not necessarily your parents or, I don't know, maybe your parents are willing to have those types of conversations with you, but you've been closed off, you know, and then vice versa, you know, as a parent. These are really important questions I think we all have to ask ourselves, rather than kind of like just throwing the blame outward. We gotta. The big point is the blame is the easy thing.

Speaker 1: 43:10

So then it becomes the question, and I would just one comment what you said is just to remember and this is part of our generous communication too is to always look at what the power differentials are. And so for a kid to seek out mentorship may be a lot more difficult than for an adult to just begin a relationship or and there's you know, obviously in our world it can be a little bit weird for adults to just be like, hey, I'm gonna be your friend kid, but there are so many programs out there mentoring programs, afterschool programs, schools that are begging for people to come and read with the kid, afterschool, or tutoring and those that have one purpose can grow into other purposes, for sure.

Speaker 1: 43:55

So those kids, just want somebody to talk to.

Speaker 2: 44:00

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Speaker 2: 44:36

You really cannot underestimate the impact you can have on a younger person. I mean, I know for me and I've talked about my history, my childhood. You know the way I grew up before with being from a broken home, and you know their drug abuse and alcoholism and everything. It's not the environment. You know that any child should be growing up in, should be subjected to, and my friends' parents really played a critical role and even if they didn't realize it, you know just even the tiniest little conversation. You know some of those conversations have stuck with me for my entire life.

Speaker 2: 45:22

I was talking with someone the other day about in reminiscing about one of my friends who I remember early in high school, like around ninth grade. I remember her mom. I just thought the world of that woman and just she would. She wouldn't have like in-depth conversations with me, but it would just be like maybe even a five minute conversation. And to this day I just remember, man, I had so much respect for that woman because she actually I felt like she saw me, I felt like she got me. You know, didn't take much.

Speaker 1: 45:56

Exactly. And you know when they talk about the suicide rates being younger and younger and depression, even just for someone to say how'd that test go In the carpool line. You know, I know lots of parents are coaching kids soccer teams and those sorts of things and you've got 10, 12, little people who are listening to you in a huddle at the end of the game and you can talk about how the game went in. One little life lesson. Yeah, they are going to eat every word because you're their coach.

Speaker 2: 46:26

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're right. There can be a lot of pressure placed on some of these kids. I was teaching a public speaking class one time and it was speech day and, of course, high anxiety right All over the classroom because none of them want to present in front of their peers for some reason. Right, I mean, it's a scary thing to get there in front of your peers. And I asked them to submit their outlines to me and just put them in the drop box right Online. Just submit it online to me.

Speaker 2: 46:57

So we get to the classroom and she hands me a copy of her outline. And I asked her OK, thank you, did you remember to put this in the drop box as well? And she just crumbled and it truly was no big deal. It was like OK, well then, just I have the hard copy here. Just when you get after class, just put it in the drop box. And. But she completely fell apart and I had to take time outside of the classroom to help put her back together again because she was so afraid that she was going to fail. And it was the most heartbreaking and frustrating thing for me at the same time, because I felt for her. But then I was also wondering where is this coming from, because this is not a normal response.

Speaker 1: 47:52

Yeah, yeah, it's so. Some kids who the perfection is coming from somewhere, and you've got some kids who don't want you to know that they don't have internet access, they don't have a computer, they don't know how to use it and they don't want to admit that they don't know how to do it. I mean, there's so many layers and time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:09

So just even a tiny moment, like you said, just ask some questions and just provide that space. Long story short, I am happy to say that she was able to. She got it together. After we had our conversation she went in front of the class, she delivered her speech and she knocked it out and in all of her peers clapped for her. You know, I was so incredibly proud of her for being able to get up there and do that. But, man, that was just to witness that. It was just something else.

Speaker 2: 48:39

Yeah, I mean, they, they're really going through things we don't even realize that they're going through, and I think that's the power of writing your story down. You know, she is an example of someone I would say that is something somebody else will be able to relate to. So, to bring this back to my initial question about writing, this is kind of like going the long way back around. That's just an example of a powerful story that if she were willing to write it down or tell that story, someone else hearing that, it's going to make a connection and they may be able to get some type of a hope. You know from it they can learn a lesson from that. It's really just going to be able to help them move forward in their own path at that moment in time. So yeah, just tell your stories, get them down.

Speaker 1: 49:33

You know, as a writing coach and speaking coach, you know I'll sit with someone and they're just asking questions and listening and they'll tell me a story like that and then they'll tell me this other story and I'll ask do you happen to see this connection? Do you see this, this and this? Oh my gosh, you know, I've my whole life I've done this and it's because of this.

Speaker 1: 49:56

And so we'll start to write based on this theme of a perfectionism, or maybe the theme is blind to please, and so then you have maybe a 10 minute talk on missed opportunities because of wanting to please someone and how they're growing out of that and choosing their own path, and then people in the room are thinking, I think I'm doing that too and I don't want to do that anymore. And suddenly you know you've got something really powerful that is affecting yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 50:28

So let's transition, and we are talking about storytelling and we mentioned a little bit about writing and in your publishing house, and I want to make sure that we have all of that information as well for anybody who's interested. And even if you're starting your journey as a writer, it's really, I think, it's advantageous to get someone to help you know in that.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Yeah, we do just writing coaching sessions If you just want to. You know, do a little bit of like I'm not writing a book.

Speaker 2: 50:54

Yeah, even just the process of writing, I mean just sometimes we need a little nudge and once the floodgates open, you know it happens, but getting started can be the most difficult thing. But there's another way that we can express our stories as well and that's through on stage. You know, if we want to do I know you've been a TEDx presenter I've been a TEDx presenter and I've had a lot of people, of course, ask you know, how do you get on that stage and what was it like? And they want to know some of the tiny details, the how to details. But it all really does start with the story, doesn't it? You know, don't skip ahead. So what kind of conversations do you have? Are they similar conversations that you have with somebody who's interested in writing a book, or do you have a slightly different conversation with someone if they're really wanting to do something like a TED talk, or if they just want to get on a stage?

Speaker 1: 51:57

Yeah, it's similar and different in that I only do nonfiction and poetry, so if you're wanting to write a fiction book, that would be a whole another storytelling avenue that I do not specialize in, but you know, especially with a memoir, it is very similar, and a lot of my authors start with something on stage and then end up expanding. So as they've discovering more of their story from that process, they want to do more, and sometimes it's something different, but they just really fall in love with the process of storytelling on the stage and that's just kind of how it's worked. But then people who write books end up needing to be able to speak on stages about their books, and so it kind of goes bookways.

Speaker 2: 52:48

That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1: 52:50

You know I have a festival that I run called Belief in Belonging, and it is somewhat to be a little bit different than Ted, because Ted does not love straight storytelling. They do want an idea, they want some facts, they want a little more science and they have some pretty rigid guidelines to what you can tell. And so for some of the people that I work with, they're fantastic speakers and Ted would never take what they have, and so I've created some other stage opportunities for them to really do straight storytelling, and so that's a little bit different from people who have a really concrete idea, backed by some science or or statistics, that they're going to tell pieces of narrative in there, and they really want that Ted stage, they want that larger exposure, and Ted is a great place to do that, and there is a little bit of a formula, if you will, of how to get a attention of a Ted organizer, but they're all different. A lot of people don't realize that Ted X their licensees and they have different it's like franchise sort of and so each organizer has a different flair and a different thing that they want.

Speaker 1: 54:06

So you have to really pay attention to those applications and what they're asking, and so I've coached both and you know they're rewarding and there's some red flags to look at for both how they're communicating. Look at their videos. Make sure they're really high quality videos that they put out, because your video will live on the internet and your name will be searched and that's what's going to pop up. So make sure you like their video quality, their website, those sorts of things. But but really I would say, if there's something that you are really passionate about getting out, then finding the right medium and not compromising.

Speaker 2: 54:45

From your perspective as a speech coach, what are some of the pros and cons of becoming a TEDx speaker versus, I guess, looking for other stages that you could share your story Because you were, you were kind of getting to that. I think that was a really good point that you were making about. Sometimes, if you just want to tell your story, tedx may not necessarily be the best platform because they are very rigid in their roles. So, yeah, and you can only use.

Speaker 1: 55:16

I think it's like less than 30 seconds on your social media. I mean, there's a lot of things where it's like not yours, but then they have this like giant platform.

Speaker 2: 55:25

So yeah, yeah, okay, all right, so we'll I can make that quick.

Speaker 2: 55:30

Okay, I'll frame the question then. Okay, so we've talked about communicating the generous communication. We talked about developing your story and the importance of being able to write that story and some of the ways that we can do that. And if we want to transition that to the stage, what are some of the pros and cons of the different stages that do exist out there? Both you and I are TEDx presenters, we're coaches. What do you see as some of the pros and cons of all the different formats that exist out there today for speakers?

Speaker 1: 56:07

Yeah, those stages are growing and those platforms are growing, which is really exciting. As a coach and as a speaker, I think most people are most familiar with the TED or TEDx, which TEDx is a franchise, essentially, of TED. Those are the local events. They run by different organizers, which means they all have a little bit different flair to them, but they have some pretty stringent roles attached that TED has to approve whether those talks that come out of them can't even go on the TEDx YouTube and there's guidelines that each speaker has to adhere to. And so if you're really wanting to tell a personal narrative or story, tedx isn't going to be the place for you. If you have an idea that you want to share and you've got some evidence that you want to use to back it, ted's gotten a lot more into that lately. You may have seen some in the past you think, well, they didn't have a lot of that, but TED has gotten more back, kind of to its roots of really wanting it to be More about these ideas that have, I would say, more concrete, provable things to them, a little less of the narrative, although you're going to maybe say something about yourself and your story to the why behind it.

Speaker 1: 57:26

Then there's events like Speak. I have an event called Blonde Festival. There's still things online that are happening, and you can look at conferences as well, and presentations as ways to speak, and even your own YouTube channel ways to just get online podcasting. There's lots of ways to begin to work as a speaker. That may not be the TEDx way to go.

Speaker 1: 57:54

I think the important thing to know is, when you get into a contract with a speaker, a stage is that you may or may not get to keep your content, and so that's really important to you to be able to give that speech again. Like with TEDx, you don't get to do that. You only get less than 30 seconds to put in your own speaker reel or on your Instagram. What is it that you want to do with that talk in the future and what rights do you have? And so it's really important to look at your contracts and to know what it is that you're getting into and what does you want to do with that in the future, and so I would say those are all important things to think about as you get ready to take your next stage.

Speaker 2: 58:33

Those are some really great suggestions to kind of fuel your thought about public speaking. A lot of people do want to get on that big public stage because they think, oh well, the brand is going to bring all of this attention and it's going to be a great opportunity for me to get my name out there. But you're right, there are some really important rules that you have to be aware of, and sometimes, if you do have an important message, if you have a story that you're convinced people are going to want to hear and that they're going to be able to connect with your story, then maybe it is that you create your YouTube channel and then you focus on getting the audience for that YouTube channel. There are definitely a lot of different ways to be able to reach out and you have to create that audience. I mean, I've learned that just being a podcaster. It's not like you're just going to put something out there and then, all of a sudden, the droves are going to come.

Speaker 1: 59:34

Even the best TEDx talks, you don't get all the people coming to hire you and all that. And it's not free. I mean, they don't charge you but you still spend money to get there and to get ready and to do all those things. And so you could put that money into a studio and rent a studio and produce your own video and put it out yourself so that's right and control your content. If that's more important to you than saying I'm a TEDx speaker, which a lot of people, that's a bucket list item and that's fine.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

Check the box. Check the box. If that's, if that's something that you've always wanted to be able to do, get on that TEDx stage. Check that box. That's absolutely wonderful, there's nothing wrong with that. But there are multiple ways to tell your story, to make an impact, to make a connection with others, and I don't know. In my opinion, I think that's the most important thing you know. Just try to make that connection with your audience. What is the story that you're telling and how is it going to impact them in some way? What are they going to get out of it? So that's a lot to think about, not just the platform, but truly what is the message that you're sending? So we have had such a wonderful conversation. It goes by so fast. We will end up having a round two at some point, because I want to be able to keep up and just see what's going on with you as time goes by. So what's next for you? I want to ask you this last question before we wrap things up.

Speaker 1: 1:01:06

Well, I've got some authors with some books coming out this fall which I'm excited about, and then in October October 21st we'll be producing the next Belief in Belonging Festival. It'll be here in Waco, texas, but we also do a live stream so you can get live stream tickets and get a view of that and watch some speakers, live musicians and poets as well, and that's a really fun show. I think in the show notes will be the website. We can also just look up on Instagram or anywhere else Belief in Belonging Festival and follow us as we release. You can see last year's reels and all of that. But that'll be the next big show for speakers and really excited to do another year, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:50

I'm excited. I really want to find out more about that as well. So you're right, that will definitely be in the show notes. So how do we get in touch with you? We'll make sure that this is in the show notes as well.

Speaker 1: 1:02:01

Probably the easiest way. I am fine with an email is Cheryl sharrylwlcom and we'll just go from there and connect. I've got Karja House website will be in the show notes as well and you can connect with me there and my website, which is Cheryl WL. That whole last name is just too much, so we'll go with the WLcom. So you can find me, look me up, and I am very open to chatting, so it doesn't bother me.

Speaker 2: 1:02:36

All right, sounds good. Well, I'm always so thankful to be able to have another communication person on the show, someone who has studied it, who has, you know, understands not only the theory but how to apply that theory and just take a well rounded view and and how all of these different areas just connect with one another. I've learned a lot. I know the listeners have learned a lot as well. So I really thank you, Cheryl, for taking time to be on the show and I definitely hope that you'll be willing to come back again sometime in the future and because I know we're going to have a lot more to talk about.

Speaker 1: 1:03:15

Absolutely. It was a blast and, like I said, we don't meet fellow calm people who don't think it was just a major for jocks very often, so it's great that's right, all right everyone.

Speaker 2: 1:03:28

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Stay tuned for the next and enjoy the rest of your day. Bye, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review.