Negotiating Tips for Women with Lesley Holloway

Do you ever feel underestimated in the workplace, or like you're constantly battling gender bias? You're not alone. This enlightening chat between host, Jennifer Arvin Furlong and attorney, Lesley Holloway, aims to alter these perceptions and challenge the status quo. We talk about women's value, the importance of negotiation skills, and the power of saying 'no'. Lesley's journey as an attorney gives her a unique perspective on navigating and succeeding in a male-dominated field.

Communication is everything. This holds true in the courtroom, boardroom, and even the living room. Lesley Holloway is a powerhouse when it comes to law, acting, and communication, making her a force to be reckoned with. We explore how she uses improv classes and breathing techniques to coach young lawyers on the importance of body language and active listening. Lesley shares her evolution over her 17-year career in the legal field, transitioning from impassioned and aggressive to a more measured response.

We wrap up our conversation with a powerful discussion about the art of walking away from a negotiation. Lesley shares her insights on how this can be an empowering experience for women, forcing them to recognize their worth. This episode will leave you inspired and motivated to stand up for your value in the workplace. So, are you ready to break through barriers and reach your full potential? Tune in.

To learn more about Lesley, visit her website here.

Jumpstart your healthy living journey with 30 Days to Healthy Living.

Recommended reading: "The Happiness Advantage" by Shawn Achor

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I tell women like know your own value, be able to articulate your value. So if somebody asks, why are you worth this much money or why should we give you a raise, that you have clear bullet points. And you can say, well, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. This is the value that I bring, which I think, again, women have a hard time valuing themselves, just in general.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Have you ever questioned your worth in the workplace? I'm pretty sure you probably, like the rest of us and you have. I guarantee you you're not alone and I'm going to be honest, I have. And this is just one of the many reasons why I want you to listen to my conversation with Leslie Holloway. She is a seasoned attorney who champions the importance of women recognizing and vocalizing their value. So listen up, ladies. If you want to learn some strategies you can take to improve your negotiation skills, especially if you are in a male-dominated field, this is the episode for you. We also talk about societal pressures and the challenges and strengths of women in leadership roles. Look, valuing yourself is the first step towards success. So don't sit back. I want you to grab a notebook and a pen. Start writing down some ideas because they're going to start flowing on how you can plan to stand up for your worth in your professional ecosystem. Let's get going.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong, so I have a guest today who is really going to help me dive into some very important communication related topics Leslie Holloway. Let me give you her bio here, because she's so impressive, I'm going to tell you talk about badass women and y'all know me, I love to talk to some fellow badass women, so I'm super stoked that she's agreed to be on the show today. So Leslie is a 17-year attorney with management, negotiation and litigation expertise. We're going to put a pen in that because we're going to talk about negotiation during this conversation, in addition to certificates and negotiation mastery and leadership principles from Harvard Business School online. She has a JD and a BFA in acting, so we're going to put another pen in that one because I think that's super interesting.

Speaker 2: 2:54

She's a mom of two boys, balancing supervision of 2000 active litigation files and over 90 employees. So y'all know those of you who have boys, right, and I'm a mom of a boy who is now a man and in some ways, I don't think they ever grow up in some ways, and as a mom, you never stop worrying about your boys. In some way, I also have a girl, but it's kind of different, so that'll make its way into our conversation as well. Like, how is she balancing all of that? And Leslie lives with her husband. She's also retired. In addition to her two little boys Wanted to make sure I put that in there. She's also a retired pageant queen who is passionate about supporting women, especially in leadership roles. Leslie, thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1: 3:44

Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 3:48

Yeah, this is going to be a fantastic conversation. I'm really excited to talk with you because I think you are going to bring an interesting viewpoint. As everybody knows, my thing is communication. That's what my background is in. I've been in the communication field for over 30 years, and sometimes we'll talk about public speaking, which, as a litigator, you have to have those skills. Sometimes I talk about interpersonal communication skills, and negotiation is certainly an aspect of that. And then in the realm of communication, whether you're talking to an audience of one or an audience of thousands, I do think there is an element of acting in there. So that's why I wanted to put all those little pins when I was reading your biography. I think this is going to be such a fun conversation, so why don't we get the audience caught up on who you are? I just read your biography, but could you just tell us a little bit about your background and why is it that you chose to become a lawyer? What made you want to go into the legal field?

Speaker 1: 5:01

That's a great question. So I will say it had a lot to do with my dad. My mom passed when I was 10. So I was raised primarily by my dad and we were just very close, very close.

Speaker 1: 5:12

He wasn't thrilled that I wanted to go to school for acting, like a lot of parents, I think you know. I think he just saw the uncertainty in it and you really, you have to put yourself out there so much and it's so much rejection. You have to have very thick skin. One of my acting teachers said the skin of a rhinoceros, you know, you just, if you're going to get that kind of rejection all the time. So he was really pushing me towards law school at an early age. I think he wanted to be a lawyer really, and that's I mean, and that's fine. It actually is a great fit for me and, like like a lot of kids, sometimes your parents know you better than you know yourself. And so I did go to school for acting but ultimately decided that for me something with a little bit more stability was a better fit, although I do love acting, I do did some some things, local things here with with our Dallas Bar Association, but no, I'm a lawyer.

Speaker 1: 6:22

Now Personal injury is my focus. Personal injury ended up being a really good fit for me. It's just I, I enjoy helping people, and so I think that's why it ended up being such a good fit for me. And it's busy, I'm a I'm a go go go kind of person, and so, you know, writing a lot of breeze or writing a lot of contracts just wasn't a good, a good thing for me to do, so. So, yeah, so I've been doing that for the past. I've been with this firm, and for over 15 years.

Speaker 2: 6:53

So yeah, so. Yeah, so you had mentioned that you know the writing of the contracts and all of that wasn't for you. So this aspect of law that you got into, or do you have more of an opportunity to get face to face with clients and just interact more often and use those communication skills? Rather than those, I guess it would be more of like a stale type of written communication when you're doing all of those contracts, because it's pretty much boilerplate, right, right?

Speaker 1: 7:24

right, yeah, so what I, what I loved about litigation is you're actually in the courtroom, and so you really feel like a lawyer, at least for me. I was doing a different job before I went to my current firm. That involved a lot of paperwork and I just didn't feel like a lawyer sitting there doing all of that. I wanted to go to the courthouse, and now I'm more of an in a management role and now I teach young attorneys how to go to the courthouse, how to present themselves, how to help present their case, which I love as well. So my job sort of changed. I don't, I don't go to the courthouse anymore, but instead I help, help young lawyers communicate what they're trying to say to a jury or to the judge, and and I do enjoy that aspect of it too but yeah, it's, you're talking to clients, you're talking to defense counsel, you're talking to judges. It's, there's a lot of communication involved with what I do.

Speaker 2: 8:22

Yeah, and I'm sure that you have to learn very quickly how to navigate those different conversations with those different audiences, because you're not going to approach one in the exact same way that you approach the other. Have you incorporated some of the acting when you're teaching the younger lawyers how to navigate those waters? What are some of the the go to, I guess, points that you typically share with a young lawyer in navigating those those waters? When you're talking to a judge versus talking to another lawyer versus talking to a client, you know all of those different audiences.

Speaker 1: 9:06

Yeah, I absolutely incorporate some of the things that I learned while getting my acting degree and the first thing I tell my, my young lawyers, when they're in the courtroom, like just breathe. It's the very first thing, because I think I had an acting teacher and I loved this class, but he talks about the ways for developing a character. It was how people breathe when they're angry or when they're sad or when they're happy, and if you think about it, you can really like, okay, yeah, I get that, because when I'm angry, maybe I'm taking short, quick breaths, or when I'm relaxed, I'm taking slow, deep breaths. And so I tell all of my attorneys you're gonna be anxious, your adrenaline's gonna be going, and so the very first thing you need to do is just take a deep breath and try to calm yourself. And I also tell them I was like don't let the words that you're speaking to the court be the first words you say that day. Talk to your dog, talk to your spouse, talk to whomever, or just talk out loud, just talk to yourself.

Speaker 1: 10:12

Practice what you're going to say, but you don't want the first words coming out of your mouth to be the words in the courtroom. You gotta warm yourself up a little bit. So those are a couple of tips that I tell them. Also, I think so much of courtroom can be thinking on your feet. So I actually brought in an improv teacher to do a workshop with my attorneys and she did a workshop improv class with us and it was great because you really have to do a lot of active listening to do improv, and so that really helped.

Speaker 1: 10:44

I think just what is this person saying, so that I can react to it and not just thinking too far ahead too much. I think in a lot of communications you're already thinking about what you want to say, so you're not really listening to what the person is saying to you. And that goes for 100%, yes, that goes for clients, that goes for judges, that goes for defense counsel. It's just you're already trying to take three steps ahead, and so I think that was really beneficial for saying hey, wait, pause and actually listen to what the person is saying to you before you respond.

Speaker 2: 11:16

Yeah, that is so challenging. You're right to be in the moment. I think listening skills is probably the number one most important communication skill that we have to focus on developing before anything else To be in that moment and to truly listen, to understand what the other person is saying. I don't think we naturally come by that. It's really hard for the human animal, who is naturally a terrible listener, to develop the patience it requires to sit there and give someone else the space and the time that they need to be able to communicate that message to you effectively and for you to just ask questions rather than make a lot of statements or assumptions when they're trying to share something with you.

Speaker 2: 12:08

You said a couple of things that are so critical and I'm so happy that you mentioned breathing and not letting the courtroom be the first time that you speak that day. Those are two things that I would talk about all the time in my public speaking classes and my students would give me looks. You get the eye rolls. It's like even at the college level the eye rolls are still there and I would have to convince them look, I mean, this is something that is within your power. You have to be mindful of how you're breathing.

Speaker 2: 12:48

Just pay attention to how you're feeling stressed out. Of course you're stressed out. This is a weird situation. You're standing in front of a group of your peers, you're expected to deliver this presentation and you're being graded. Be a little stressed out, congratulations. You're human. So focus on your breathing and then practice, practice ahead of time so that you are warmed up, you have those vocal cords or not just waking up at the moment you're doing your presentation. So I just wanna say I feel vindicated in that I've been doing that for so many years, 100%.

Speaker 1: 13:30

I agree.

Speaker 2: 13:31

Former student, so I was not full of crap. Okay, I'm just vindicated here, yeah, so those are some fantastic points that I think anybody, even if you're not in the legal field, I think you'll be able to take those tidbits and I always say those tiny tweaks. If you can just focus on one thing and get really good at that one thing, it's gonna have a huge impact on your communication. Do you find that your communication style switches when you're at work versus when you're at home? Because being the mom of two little boys and you've got your husband at the house, I mean there's a lot of testosterone going on. You know, at the home You're telling me.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Yeah. So do you have to switch your communication style or do you pretty much keep that same communication style going? Because when you have little boys you have to kind of be very direct and tell them look, yes or no, and this is the way things are gonna happen. Tell me a little bit about that transition for you between workplace and then home.

Speaker 1: 14:47

You know, I think managing people is sort of similar to managing children in a lot of ways. The only thing is the children can just they hit your buttons a little bit more than grown people do. I can definitely keep my cool. I never lose my cool at work, ever. I mean, even when an attorney messes something up, I try to. Just I don't get angry, I'm like, okay, well, we need to problem solve this number one, and then what are you learning from it so that we don't make this mistake again? But I never yell, I never raise my voice, anything like that. I find that much more challenging with little boys who are running around acting crazy and not listening to you, oh no doubt, yeah, and it's something I really have to work on.

Speaker 1: 15:34

I mean, the way I was raised, my parents were yellers. It's just how they were, and it's something I have to work on really, really hard with my kids, because it's sort of my default parent mode and just for me, it's me telling myself to take the deep breath yeah, that's right, and just have a little bit more patience, because you know, at seven and eight they're still sort of living in that animal brain. They haven't developed that prefrontal cortex to be able to do rational decision-making. Although they are fully capable of doing things like picking up their laundry or throwing their stuff in the trash, it's just like it doesn't occur to them. It's like, well, my wrapper goes in the trash. I don't understand.

Speaker 2: 16:24

The cushion of the couch, you know?

Speaker 1: 16:25

And yeah, exactly I can take my socks off right here and just leave them. So I feel like I incorporate some of the things from work. But it's just definitely different, because little kids are just not rational. They're not you know, and you can't over talk them either you can explain to an adult.

Speaker 1: 16:48

But kids, you start explaining too much and they're just, they're out. They start checking out. You know their attention span and what you can communicate to them. You have just a little window and you really have to do it when they're calm. I mean, probably the best conversations I have with my children are after the fit throwing or whatever, and we've gotten to a place of calm and then we can talk about, you know, what choice they made was wrong, or you know and I'm a big believer in owning my own mistakes and apologizing to my children if I make a mistake and so in those calm moments I can say I'm sorry, I raised my voice at you, I was just at my limit, I was at my limit as a person for the day, and so, yeah, I think overall it's way more challenging communicating with little kids than it is with adults. In my opinion, jumpstart your healthy living journey with 30 days to healthy living.

Speaker 2: 17:50

This best selling nutrition set is designed to act as a reset, to establishing healthy habits and a healthy lifestyle so you can get more energy, manage weight and feel fit. Now, with more choices than ever, you can customize your 30 days with delicious protein shakes, detox teas and supplements, All designed to support your goals. Ready to start feeling better and healthier? Get started today by clicking on the link in the show notes. You know, I think we don't practice apologizing enough as parents or being openly vulnerable enough as parents, especially to our children when they're younger. I think it's really great that you model that for your boys, because we do make mistakes, we are human, and to set that expectation that you know when you grow up, you got to have all the answers, you're going to be perfectly in control, you know that's not reality. So to be able to model, hey, look, I made a mistake or I'm sorry, or look, I kind of lost my cool there and I don't want to do that, you know and to be able to show them that it's okay to make a mistake, number one, it's not the end of the world, but there is a way that we can kind of move past it and that's how we continue on about our day.

Speaker 2: 19:27

Those are critical skills that I think sometimes, even as adults, we have a hard time wrestling with that when you have conversations with your employees at work. You know we make mistakes at work all the time and I can imagine in the legal field, if you make a mistake, I mean, it can have some huge ramifications, right. So tell me about that aspect of the communication. You know, how do you have those conversations with your employees, just like with our kids? We want to make sure they understand yeah, okay, yeah, we made a mistake. Do you have those same types of conversations with your employees?

Speaker 1: 20:12

Yeah, I think you have to in any sort of any sort of business, because mistakes are going to happen. So you have to be able to communicate to your employees directly. I really try to. Well, number one I sort of live by the philosophy that everything is figure outable. And even if there is, I have that. It's on a little post, it on my computer and it's just. And I tell my kids I'm like problem solvers are the key to this world. To like people who can solve problems, you have to be a problem solver, and so I feel like that's what I do on a daily basis, and so I feel that when mistakes happen, we can figure out a solution, we can figure out a way to fix it. So that's why I don't come down hard on people. I do like to be really direct in my communication. I do like to give concrete reasons why I don't like to tell somebody well, you just can't do this. I like to, I like for them to understand why they can't do that or why this has to be done a certain way.

Speaker 1: 21:16

We have a lot of policies and procedures. We're a big office, we have a lot of cases and we have our policies and procedures in place for reasons, and over the years I found that a number of people will just stop doing something and you're like, why did you stop doing that? Well, I just didn't think I had to anymore. And so you kind of have to, kind of have to revisit these policies and procedures, whether it's having, you know, group meetings just to say, okay, are we still on the same page? Are we still all following the procedures? And then when somebody messes up, I just like to call them in and have a direct, direct conversation about it and say, look, this is, this is really important, that you follow this, and here's why. Or here's what can happen.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Or I had to with an employee recently. She was not on top of responding to her discovery and I'm like, look, when you don't respond to this, what it leads to is more work for everyone, because now the paralegal has to do a motion to fix this, the attorney's going to have to have a hearing on that motion. So this is creating hours of work because you're not meeting the deadlines. So this is a serious problem. And I do try to convey like this is a serious problem Because now you've created work for two more people by not meeting your deadlines, and so when you're in trouble, you need to communicate that to me. It's your responsibility to tell me I'm struggling, I can't meet my deadlines, I need some help, and I will get you the help you need. But I can't do that if you don't communicate that to me.

Speaker 2: 22:46

Yeah, that is a fantastic example as I was listening to you describe how you have those difficult conversations.

Speaker 2: 22:54

It reminds me of it's called the SBI technique and I learned it when I went to a leadership professional development, you know, week long thing at the Center for Creative Leadership up in North Carolina and this one technique kind of just it was a game changer.

Speaker 2: 23:13

You know it's S is for situations, so you describe for them the situation, the time and place, you know whatever had occurred, describe that for them and then the behavior what was the actual action? You know that that is the issue and then the impact. So that's the I part of it of the SBI. What was the impact you know like how is this affecting your coworkers, how is this affecting you know, the system or whatever it is to be able to explain the rationale behind that. I just find that you know pretty cool that you were kind of going along with that exact tool that I remember learning all those years ago during that leadership program and it really does work. Just listening to you describe how you would have that conversation with somebody, the rationale behind it, it goes a long way rather than just saying, hey, you screwed up, you screwed up, don't do it again.

Speaker 1: 24:16

Yeah, exactly, yeah, that doesn't. I just don't think that gives people the information that they need. Right, yeah, I think they need more information.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Yeah. So you have to be willing to do that as a manager. You have to be willing to take that extra step and explain those things you know, explain the rationale behind why. So you've been in the legal field for what did 17 years. Is that what I?

Speaker 1: 24:47

yeah, 17 years total with my, my current firm, a little over 15 years.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Yeah, how have your communication skills or maybe how have you changed over that time? You know, I imagine being a young lawyer for starting out, this is a whole new, different world for you, trying to figure out how to navigate those waters and you know, to now being a leader. You know, in that type of a role, what has developed in you, what were some of those specific skills that you had to learn to develop in order to be able to move forward in your career path?

Speaker 1: 25:27

That's a great question and I can definitely say when I was younger I was much more impassioned with my communication. I was quick to respond and jump right in within very impassioned response. And you know how dare you think that my client would, you know, do this? I was just very aggressive. I think, and you know, unfortunately, I think part of that has to do with being a woman in the legal field. You have this need to prove yourself. I mean, the number of times when I started out as a young attorney and I was mistaken for the paralegal or the legal assistant are just too many to count. So you want to be, or I was trying to be, assertive and maybe a little aggressive. So, like I'm the lawyer here, you know I'm not the legal assistant, I'm not the paralegal, and now I would say my communication is much more tempered. I have learned that that's really. You know, it's old Southern saying do you catch more flies with honey?

Speaker 2: 26:30

That sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 26:32

And so I have learned that about myself. I still have that sort of knee jerk, emotional reaction, but I give myself some time to process before I respond and maybe I do write the angry email that I want to write, but I don't send it, you know. So I think that just maybe with age also sort of comes a little bit of mellow. You know, you just sort of mellow as you get older, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I mean, I think there is pros and cons to each. I mean you want, when you're a lawyer, you want to be a zealous advocate for your client, but also you have to work with people and you're really trying to reach a resolution, because usually resolutions without going all the way to trial are really better for your client.

Speaker 1: 27:26

I mean trial is an intimidating process and not all and a lot of clients are like, oh, I don't want to go that far with it. So I've just learned to sort of calm myself in a different way, not attach so much emotion to my reactions and temper my responses as I've aged. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:50

I think that it you know, because as we get older we have so many different experiences life experiences at home, at work, you know, with friends, whatever it is. I think as we continue to gather more and more of those experiences, we begin to realize is this one thing really worth all of the drama that I could impose here if I'd lose my cool, or is this just something that you know what it's going to pass? It's not really that big of a deal. I think we learn over time how to differentiate between the things that are really worth losing your cool over versus the ones that are like, come on, in the grand scheme of things, that really is not that big of a deal, so we really don't need to kind of over dramatize what's going on here. So I agree, you know I celebrated my 50th birthday not too long ago and I am a much different person now than what I was in my early 20s, when you were talking about being a young lawyer and how.

Speaker 2: 29:04

You know there are those assumptions you're the paralegal or you're the assistant, you know, in some way, rather than the lawyer.

Speaker 2: 29:11

I joined the Marine Corps right out of high school and so being a woman going into the Marine Corps, where you're just surrounded by men, right, just all day, every day, all of the time, and then being young to boot, right, I think you do tend to.

Speaker 2: 29:30

We develop this hardcore outer shell because there are a lot of assumptions that are made, you know, regarding being a young woman in a field where there are not a lot of women who are in that you know particular field. But even to this day, as a veteran, you know I'm not married anymore, but I can tell you, every single time my ex-husband and I would go out somewhere and they would see either the Marine Corps emblem on my car or, you know, someone knew we're meeting for the first time. If they come over to the house and they would see the Marine Corps flag hanging out in the yard, you can probably guess who they assumed was the one who served in the Marine Corps. Every single time it was just so frustrating. It's like hello, welcome to the 21st century. Women can be Marines too.

Speaker 1: 30:28

It's a thing Women are veterans.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Nothing new has been going on for quite some time now. Do you think that it's just as difficult for young women just entering these male-dominated fields to navigate as it was when we were first going into our fields, or do you think they are still experiencing the same level of assumptions that come with just being a young woman in this field? Do you think it's changed at all for women?

Speaker 1: 31:10

I feel like it has changed a little bit at least. In the legal field. There are more women than ever going to law school. There are more women lawyers than have ever been. I think that in the legal community we are seeing just more women in general. I think that's a good thing. That doesn't mean that women still don't face challenges in the legal world. The world seems to be, in general, more aware of women and their struggles than they were, I feel like when I was a young lawyer 20 years ago or a little less than 20 years ago. I feel like this is a topic that the world is discussing.

Speaker 1: 31:58

Where are women in the world right now? Where do they stand? I don't think that my young lawyers and I could be wrong, but I don't think it's assumed that they are apparently or the legal assistant as much now as I was, I will say, because my name is Leslie and I'm the managing partner. Sometimes people still assume that I must be a man. I will get a Mr Holloway instead of Mrs, so it does occasionally happen, but I think it has come along a little bit. I really feel like it could be much, much better. I think that women are still struggling to get respect in their fields. There's still a lot of bias against women and their leadership. Just can women be leaders? We haven't even had a female president yet. I think there's just still as a country, we are still looking at women and saying can they be leaders?

Speaker 2: 33:06

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 33:09

I think it could be a lot better.

Speaker 2: 33:11

Oh yeah, I think we have definitely seen a lot of change over the years but, like you said, we still have some ways to go. It is pretty cool to see women who are in leadership positions we are beginning to see, even though they still make up a teeny, tiny little percentage of the CEOs that exist out there, but we are beginning to see more and more women. Women take these very powerful and very visual, visually powerful roles. I think that's a fantastic role model for young girls who are just the future leaders of tomorrow. Somebody is going to listen to this conversation and think, oh man, I can become a lawyer or I can join the Marine Corps. There are things that I can do. I think that's why it's so important to have conversations like this, because there's going to be some little kid somewhere. This is going to plant a seed. It's going to be that point of hope for them, that goal that can turn into something that they're going to strive for, to have that thing that they want to go after.

Speaker 1: 34:33

You mentioned CEOs and I wish I had the data on this, because I just saw a study that said something about female-led company CEOs are outperforming. They did a study of several large companies and the ones led by females are outperforming the ones led by males. Isn't that interesting? The data is out there.

Speaker 1: 34:54

I'm sure people can look it up. I think women can bring a lot of unique qualities to leadership that may have been perceived as weaknesses initially. In a male-dominated society, which was not really that long ago, I think that some of the qualities of women were perceived as weaknesses, but they can actually be strengths in leadership.

Speaker 2: 35:22

What if it were possible to bridge the gap between you and your teen so that you could communicate with honesty, compassion and understanding? What if you could transform your relationship with your teen so that you can guide them to be confident, capable adults who want to open up to you? If you like the sound of that, you need to get the book titled you Are Not a Bad Parent. It's by board-certified pediatrician Dr Elizabeth Henry. She will guide you down a streamlined path to creating lasting connection and true understanding between you and your teen. Get your copy today by clicking on the link in the show notes. I'm going to apologize already because my dog is sitting at my feet and starting to. I'm surrounded by dogs. Right now I've got three of them, and one of them is yeah, tell her to be quiet a little bit, but yeah, with women in these leadership roles, what do you think are some of those qualities that they have that are enabling them to be such successful leaders?

Speaker 1: 36:34

Well, like we talked about, I think, listening. I think women are great listeners. I think that they'll actually go to. Women don't have as much ego and I'm not trying to bash men, but I just think that women have a different type of ego so they can take feedback, take input from other people from different departments, and they can implement that they don't think well, I'm the head, so I have to have it all figured out by myself.

Speaker 1: 37:05

I think women are more open to communicating and to having that exchange with their staff and learning from them so that they can implement better policies, procedures, growth, whatever. I also just happen to think that women are better communicators in general, and we have a lot of patience more so, I think, and certainly not every. I don't want to stereotype every man and every woman, but I think that women do have a lot of patience, and so they can use that to their advantage in their leadership. They empathy. I think a lot of women have great capacity for empathy, and using your empathy in your leadership role can really make you connect with your employees and ultimately get better performance from them because you're understanding them as a person and not just as this being in the seat that's doing the work.

Speaker 1: 38:06

You're actually getting to know them, caring about them, seeing things from their perspective. So I think, yeah, a lot of great qualities that women bring to the table.

Speaker 2: 38:17

You had mentioned not wanting to stereotype, because we all know when, at any study, there's going to be a core group and that's what we recognize as what is the norm. And of course there's always going to be outliers out there. But I wanted to call that to the listener's attention because I'm one of those outliers and this is what is kind of funny about being an outlier but learning how to communicate effectively. So you had mentioned empathy. I will fully admit empathy and patience are two of the things that I personally struggle with the most. I have to muster up the ability to have that. It doesn't come natural to me and I know it's because my upbringing and yada, yada, yada, but it's my communication style to be very, very direct and I'm very action-oriented and process-oriented and not very people-oriented.

Speaker 2: 39:21

But I have learned over the years with the listening skills I've learned when it's necessary to turn on the empathic listening style. So it's like, okay, I'm recognizing in this moment I need to shut up, I'm going to let them keep talking because they need to get this out right, they got a vent and I'm not going to solve the problem. So the critical listening that's getting shut down. And so what has happened over the years I've had people tell me, jen, that's not true.

Speaker 2: 39:57

You're one of the most empathetic people I've ever met, you have a heart of gold. And I'm like, no, not really. I just shut up and let you have the floor and then, hey, I can help guide you to your own answer. I'm not telling you what I'm not going to critique, and I think that's just a great example of even if you're an outlier, you can still learn how to develop those skills. Like you said, listening, if that's not something that comes natural to you, you can practice it and over time you can get better at it, and then you can fool people like I do.

Speaker 1: 40:45

I think that's so interesting that you said that, because I also will. A lot of times at work I just dive right in, Like you said, process oriented, and so when I'm responding to someone, I just dive in with like what's happening here, what's the solution, and I will tell people. When you work for me, I'm just like so action oriented. A lot of times I forget the pleasantries and it's not personal. And I had this one attorney. She's like you hate me and I was like I do not. I promise you I don't. I'm just like this is the problem, this is how we need to fix it, and I don't put a lot of fluff in there.

Speaker 1: 41:21

Sometimes and I did it the other day I was responding to an email. One of my attorneys was in there and I just jumped right in and then I was like, oh wait, I should probably be like how are you? Haven't touched you in a while? Hope you're doing well. I should probably throw some pleasantries in. So I get that too. I mean, I feel like I'm a pretty empathetic person. But even you're balancing your action oriented side, your problem solving side, with your personal skills, and so you have to remember, sometimes not everybody's like that, so they need a little bit of. They need a little bit of. Good morning, Hope you're doing well. Now let's solve the problem, that's right.

Speaker 2: 42:00

Yeah, there are people like that. If you do not allow for the five minutes of chit chat before the Skoll session begins, they're going to be hurt all day. And these are also the ones who are in communication styles training. It's called people oriented. So the ones who are more people oriented, they'll wear their heart on their sleeves. They kind of take on the emotions and sometimes they can be accused of being overly emotional or they will take on everybody else's stress and their emotions and they tend to be the person in the office is the go to person that, oh, go, talk to so and so they'll. They'll empathize with you. They, you know, are very good at that and that can become overwhelming for those types of people as well, with that communication style. But I love hearing you share that. Look, yeah, even I have to kind of take a moment and remember this is somebody that I need to make sure that we do the pleasantries.

Speaker 2: 43:05

It does make a huge impact on that relationship and then your ability to communicate effectively with one another. When you have that type of an awareness, it's a fantastic skill to be able to develop. So when you have the younger women coming into the legal field and they come into your office, they're beginning to work for you. What type of conversations do you have with them regarding being able to negotiate? Or you know what are some of those takeaways that we might be able to learn? You know for ourselves, even if we're not in the legal field, what are some of those negotiation tactics? Because, as a woman, as we've established, you know, if you're in that quote norm, you know group we do tend to be empathetic and do tend to listen well and be very mindful of the other person. How does that play into your ability to negotiate?

Speaker 1: 44:11

Well, I think that that can have.

Speaker 1: 44:14

That can have some good impact and bad, because I think as women, we have a hard time advocating for ourselves. And I had a young woman come in one time to ask for a raise and she came in very timidly and was like, well, I would, I would like a raise, can we talk about that? And I said, okay, well, why? And she just had nothing. She had nothing to give me. And I said, okay, here's what we're going to do. You're going to go back to your office and I want you to go think critically about the value that you bring to this firm and then we can have that conversation. I'm totally open to it.

Speaker 1: 44:47

But you can't come into someone's office and just say, well, I need a raise, so I want to talk about a raise. That's not negotiating from a point of strength. That's a very weak standpoint to come in with. And so I told her to go back. And so she did. And she didn't come back that day Like she really thought about it. She really went through and said, okay, what have I done over the past year? What have I? What value do I bring? And that and that's the same with our cases it's it's what's the value of the case when you're negotiating that. And so I I tell women like know your own value, be able to articulate your value. So if somebody asks, well, why are you worth this much money, or why should we give you a raise, that you you have clear bullet points and you can say, well, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this.

Speaker 1: 45:39

this is the value that I bring, which I think, again, women have a hard time valuing themselves, just in general.

Speaker 1: 45:46

So, so I think that's important. I think also, when it comes to negotiating with our cases, I, I I have to tell my female attorneys don't worry about being so polite, especially being, you know, from Texas, we're generally friendly people. I think women in general are sort of told to be polite, and so you don't have to, and some people will take advantage of that in negotiations They'll really start to try to bully you and pressure you and try to convince you why your case is so bad and, oh, your client's terrible, or the case is terrible this and that, and they're really putting a lot of pressure on these women. And they look at these women and they're like, oh, a young woman.

Speaker 1: 46:32

It's almost like easy, easy target, like don't worry about being so polite. You can still be polite, but you can say no, yeah, a firm no is okay, or I'm not going to be able to do this, or you know this is not going to work for my client. Just don't be afraid to say that.

Speaker 2: 46:50

Don't be, just don't be. Use my, my, my ability to be nice as a weakness Right.

Speaker 1: 46:56

Right, exactly, and I think that they I think that they do you can stand firm with your demands. You can stand firm with your. What you believe the value of your case is that you don't just have to them. And I think that they try to put that pressure on women, young attorneys to sort of give in to them and I, but I also support them. Look, if you're struggling with this, come to me and I will help you.

Speaker 1: 47:24

If you're getting a lot of you know, you just don't feel like you're making headway. Let's, let's figure out a solution to it.

Speaker 1: 47:31

And maybe it is just walking away from the negotiation, maybe it is just saying, okay, we're at an impasse and we we're not going to be able to resolve this case today. So I think and I think that's okay, I think sometimes women just sort of a lot do want a resolution, right, and they're trying to figure out everything they can to reach that resolution and bend over backwards, almost. But it is okay to say this is just not working for us, You're not making the concessions that we need and we're going to have to walk away from this.

Speaker 2: 48:02

That's okay. You know, I can see how, for any woman, this is so empowering, because what I'm hearing you say is it's okay to say no and it's okay to walk away and it's okay to say you know what? This is not benefiting me. This is not something that we've agreed to, and so this is not something that I'm going to say okay, you know, because, because it's not meeting the expectations that I had. I think you're right.

Speaker 2: 48:40

A lot of women have a very difficult time just believing that that's okay to take that stance. That's so empowering to be able to do that. And when you, when you say those words out loud, like even now, as I'm saying them, and I'm like look at me standing up a little straighter, you know my posture and I'm like I'm feeling like, okay, now I'm becoming a badass. Right Now I'm in control here. It's amazing how just those few words, in that, that one action, could have a huge impact on your sense of of empowerment and your sense of confidence. Do you see that in the young lawyers? Have you seen them grow in their sense of confidence over time?

Speaker 1: 49:25

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. And June is for 15 years and mentoring a lot of young attorneys. I have seen women come so far and develop their confidence, and that's just. That's an amazing thing to see. I mean I think it really comes to knowing your value as a person, knowing yourself really well, and it's so hard for women. I mean I just think that we've got a lot of pressure from families, from society. I mean I grew up in East Texas and it was like well, you got to get married and have kids.

Speaker 1: 49:55

Right and that is where your value is, and so, and you know, I didn't get married till later in life. I was 32 when I got married, and so I think that you know I struggled with my value as a person and I see a lot of young women today and I love it. They are, they are, they know their worth.

Speaker 2: 50:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:16

But I think there's still a lot that struggle with it from pressure or social media, even Just all the things that women are facing. And so, yeah, I love to see women say wait a second, I'm valuable, Just me, just the way I am. I don't necessarily need this to make me valuable or that to make me valuable, but just as a human being I have value and I think that that, yeah, I love seeing young women come along and sort of get to that point and we're talking about professionals here that I'm dealing with. I mean, these women have been to law school and they're still not feeling their value and their worth fully.

Speaker 1: 50:51

And so helping them get there. Yeah it's, it's one of the. It's something that brings me a lot of joy.

Speaker 2: 50:57

Yeah, and you know, just that one example of telling that one lawyer go back to your office, think about this critically, think about what value you bring, so that you can have some good, concrete examples as to why you deserve a raise. That, just that alone, what an incredible tool that you gave her to be able to wrap her brain around and go oh wait, a minute, you're right, you know, just by her going through that, I'm sure that had a profound impact on her sense of self-worth right there, because she had to really face it and and come to terms with wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 51:41

Yeah, I do bring a lot of value to this firm, you know. So, for women anywhere to be able to do that as an exercise, you know, even if you're not asking for a raise, just do this as an exercise, sit down, think critically. My value, this is what I bring to the table, you know, and and I think that will make an incredible impact on your ability to kind of, you know, go through, whether it's something in a personal relationship or a professional relationship. I just think that's fantastic of you as a leader to give that gift, you know, to someone else. That's just fantastic, thank you, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 52:23

I'm going to do it with myself, and that's where I. I mean, I actually wasn't being considered for partnership at my firm at the time and I had to. I had to initiate that and I had to go to my partner now and say look, I think that I deserve this opportunity, and here's why. And it's one of the most difficult conversations. My hands were sweating. I was so nervous to have that conversation. But if I hadn't had that conversation with him, things might have gone in a very different direction for me.

Speaker 2: 52:54

Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Even if you're feeling scared, even if you're nervous, you're stressing out over it, you've got to push through because you don't know what amazing things are are just waiting for you on the other side, if you can just make the ask. But come prepared when you're prepared.

Speaker 1: 53:15

Prepare to make your ask? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 53:17

Absolutely. That is fantastic, Wonderful. And we're almost coming to an hour and, Leslie, I cannot believe it. I just. This has been such a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed listening to you share your experiences and just you know your leadership skills and your wisdom with working with women and helping them develop in their own communication skills and develop that sense of confidence and self-awareness. I just, I truly have learned a lot in having this conversation with you and I know for a fact the listeners have learned a lot as well, so I truly appreciate you being on the show. Before we wrap up, is there anything that you want to make sure that we provide some space for you to be able to say something to the listeners? Any final thoughts?

Speaker 1: 54:14

Oh well, yeah, I think that we. It was a great conversation. I have enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate you having me on because I love talking about it. I love talking about the ways that we can communicate better with one another and the ways that women can can really rise up. You know, I really want to see, in the next 10 years, 20 years. I want to see those women rise up. I want to see those women be brave and take those risks and get into more leadership roles, because I just think that's going to make the world a better place. And I know that sounds so idealistic, but and I'm not, I'm a realist but it's and it's. I genuinely believe that if women can develop their communication skills, that they will, that they will, you know, rise up and be great leaders and that we can really make some positive change in this world. I'm just passionate about it. So I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk about it today.

Speaker 2: 55:14

Yeah, yeah, that's a fantastic message. I agree with you 100%. You know, young women, young girls, look, you can. You can do this, you know, and and don't wait for just something to happen, because you have the ability within yourself to be able to stand up and take a look around you and make those choices. Think about what it is that you want and then figure out the path. What is the path that you can take in order to to get to that end, that that goal that you've set for yourself? And there are different things that we can do little by little. You know, even if you're nervous, even if you're scared, I think we have done a great job at showing, through this conversation, that it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be scared and nervous. This isn't something that happens overnight. You know these skills. You begin today to work on them and then, over time, you'll feel yourself growing stronger in that skill set.

Speaker 1: 56:16

I know that you've got a cheerleader out there. I mean, know that other women are cheering you on. There's so much to talk about women not supporting women, but there are, there are a lot of women that do support women and just whatever step you're going to take whether it's to go ask for that raise or whether it's to to communicate with your partner about something you're not happy about in the relationship, whatever it is know that you've got cheerleaders out there that are saying you know you can do this. I'm one for sure, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 56:44

So, speaking of you as a cheerleader, how do we get in touch with you in case we do need that, that sense of oh man? You know, I just need a little bit of support.

Speaker 1: 56:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a website. You can go to Leslie Hollowaycom and Leslie is LESLYHOLOWAYCOM. It just has information on how to get in touch with me. My social media it's got information. I have a little scholarship that I do for single parent households that's in honor of my dad, since I was raised in a single parent household. It's got information about that. Yeah, you can just check out my website and reach out to me.

Speaker 2: 57:21

That's fantastic. I'll make sure that all of that is available in the show notes Anyone who's listening. You'll be able to get to it very easily. You know, just look up the show notes. Thanks again, leslie. So much, it's been a pleasure. I hope that, you know, at some point in the future you'll want to come back on the show to have another great conversation. I'd love to. All right, fantastic, all right, everybody. Have a wonderful rest of your day and we'll see you next time. Bye, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others Just about it on social media, or leave a rating and a review.