Unraveling the Art of Political Communication: Strategies, Generational Engagement, and Media Navigation with Matt Krayton

Have you ever wondered about the meticulous strategies that construct a political campaign's narrative or how those same principles apply to our daily dialogues on societal issues? Join me, Jennifer Furlong, as I engage with Matt Krayton from Publitics, unveiling the threads that connect personal history to political prowess. Our in-depth conversation traverses Matt's transition from history buff to political consultant, providing a rare glimpse into the delicate art of political communication.

Politics isn't just for the boomer generation anymore, and this episode doesn't shy away from tackling the critical task of relating to young voters. We dissect the importance of political participation across generations, acknowledging the evolving role of technology and the unique challenges it presents. As we analyze the intricacies of political expression and the pitfalls of mass communication, the conversation illuminates how empathy and respect are not mere niceties, but essential tools for navigating increasingly contentious political landscapes.

Wrapping up, we confront the contentious role of media in crafting political narratives amidst a divided political scene. Matt joins us to offer expert insights on steering through the news cycle with a critical eye, emphasizing the need for credible sources and diverse viewpoints. Our discussion underscores the strategic considerations when dealing with media across platforms, and we explore the essential balance between maintaining democratic integrity and connecting with voters. Tune in for a comprehensive discourse that delivers not only analysis but actionable strategies for more effective democratic engagement.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I cannot think of a better way to kick off season four than with an interview with someone who has not only seen behind the curtain, but has been an active participant in creating what goes on behind the curtain in political campaigns. This past summer, in 2023, I had the honor of interviewing Matt Crayton, the founder of Publitex. Now, if you're not familiar with Publitex, they provide media and political consulting to candidates from the local to federal levels all over the country. In addition to working with political candidates, they've also worked with PACs and industry groups and corporate clients to navigate the political landscape, and in 2020, matt helped create President Joe Biden's viral we Just Did Hat. I think it's important to note here that, although Matt and I don't share the same political ideologies, we do share an understanding that effective communication is of the utmost importance, not only in the political sphere, but also to how we communicate with one another about the critical topics of the day and how we go about getting our information and why all of this is crucial to our democracy. I really enjoyed this conversation with Matt, and I'm sure you will too.

Speaker 1: 1:18

Let's go Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong. I have a special treat today. I'm super excited about today's guest. Now.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Those of you who are longtime listeners, you know that my daytime job as a media analyst. I really get into the politics of things. I'm fascinated by how we communicate about politics, how it impacts, how we communicate with one another just being a consumer of communication and so a very important aspect of that is campaigning, and I am so thrilled to be able to say that I have an expert with me today in political communication. Matt Craton is founder of Publitex. It's a strategy firm really for politicians well, anything, I guess, related to politics. So we're going to listen to Matt explain a little bit about what he does with his firm, but then, after we get to know him a little better, I want to do kind of a deep dive Into just how are things going in our world today and what are some strategies that maybe you and I can learn from Matt so that we can have better, more meaningful conversations about some of the more difficult topics that we're having to grapple with in our society today. So, matt, thank you so much for being on the show. Welcome.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Thank you for having me on Jen, Appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 3:10

That was kind of a really quick, really broad. Here's Matt, and this is what he's doing today. Would you mind just introducing yourself to the listeners and letting them know exactly what is Publitex and what kind of relationship to the political sphere do you have?

Speaker 2: 3:29

Sure, absolutely so. Publitex is a full service PR, public affairs and political consulting firm and, as you noted, we focus a lot and think a lot about strategy, both for our political clients, nonprofit clients, and then things that I like to call political adjacent, which is almost everything these days. Everything is almost political adjacent, so we provide a variety of services for our clients, but cut our teeth in the political world. So I started back in 2011 by myself solo practitioner, poking around for whatever campaign would hire me at that point. So I was a fresh out of grad school, had no idea what I was going to do. I had a job, didn't love it and I was like well, I've always liked politics, so let's try this, and luckily, it's worked out over the years.

Speaker 2: 4:28

So I've been doing campaigns ever since, and that's really where I developed my communication skills and some of the things that we bring to our clients. Even in other sectors, you can learn a lot from political campaigns, both what to do and what not to do. And then in 2014, I brought on a partner and we've been growing ever since, so he's also a political consultant as well. So he had traveled the country managing campaigns from the federal level on down. So that's sort of how we got our start, and now we're still doing a lot of campaign work, but then, like I said, we're also doing a lot of work in sort of the political sphere and then also corporate communications as well.

Speaker 1: 5:17

That's fantastic. So what were you like as a kid? Were you always into politics, or was this just something that developed later on?

Speaker 2: 5:27

That's an interesting question. So what was I like as a kid? I wasn't into politics per se. I didn't grow up in, I think, what you would consider to be like a hyper political family and in fact I kind of ended up on the opposite side of the spectrum of most of my family though there's been some shuffling in recent years, as has been in a lot of different families, but I always did have this interest in history. So I was very lucky from a young age that my grandparents in particular helped me kind of nurture that interest in history. So for some reason I really got into like the Civil War era type stuff. So they took me on several trips to tour the battlefields and learn all about that stuff. So I always had this interest in history and how governments worked and then ultimately translated, I might say like in high school, like I was interested in politics, paying attention, but again not like a really hyper partisan person, not someone that was paying super close attention other than reading the headlines and kind of consuming the news and politics. That way In college definitely became more politically active and tried to learn.

Speaker 2: 6:51

So I minored in political science, majored in history, which I guess was inevitable. I was actually my path. I was on a path to be a history teacher, actually a social studies teacher. So that was my thought leaving high school, getting into college. I like teaching, like history, like what can you even do with this? So he's like, oh, I can teach. So did that whole thing, went through my undergrad, did a master's degree in education and then 2008 came along. Economy melted down. I graduated in 2010 from undergrad, 2011 from grad school, and there were no jobs for teachers, especially history teachers. So that's where I was like kind of stuck and I was like all right, well, I have this degree and I've developed this interest. And in grad school too, I actually had the opportunity to work for a public opinion polling institute at the university that I was at. So I got to kind of experience firsthand how people put together polls how you gauge public.

Speaker 1: 7:57

That was fascinating.

Speaker 2: 7:59

Yeah, it was fascinating, especially like the mechanics of it because, like you always buy until you're, like, really paying attention, you don't really appreciate, like all of the work and intricacies that go into it and, honestly, all of the challenges now today which at that point even it would have been hard to imagine the world that we're in today from just the pure difficulty of measuring public opinion on any given issue, let alone the horse race of a political campaign. So that was really fascinating because we got to kind of dig into issues and sort of the psyche of the public to see where people were at on certain issues. So I had a lot of fun there and that sort of like also cultivated my interest.

Speaker 1: 8:46

Similarly. It's pretty funny, I think, we don't develop our love for politics until much later and kind of like you know, you go down that windy road. I'm about to date myself here, so pretty much the same grew up in a family who we really didn't pay attention to politics like at all. I mean my dad was like a drummer in a rock band and my mom, after they were divorced, you know, she was the biker chick, so I mean there was like a lot of party and going on and just you know, that area of the world just was not even on the radar until I was graduating high school and realized, look, I mean I don't have money to go to college. I have no idea. What in the hell am I going to do? I'll join the military, you know.

Speaker 1: 9:30

And then, being a woman who I went into the Marine Corps right out of high school, that was my first really just dipping my big toe into that pond, because I went into public affairs and I wound up at Quantico and that was really I mean just kind of witted to hyperdrive. Lessons learned of the politics, of what's going on and being so close to Washington DC and we had the tail hook trials going on at the same time and we had the Lone Tree trial with you know. He was the first Marine to be accused of espionage. We had women who were being integrated into training. You know, at the basic school in the Marine Corps, I mean it was just boom, boom, boom and it just opened up this world. I just found it so fascinating. And at the time, being a journalist, you know, I was really in this position where I could just kind of go and just ask questions and learn about everything that was happening. And so I found that I became more of a student because I was a journalist in the Marine Corps and I really just enjoyed the conversations and the learning and getting the different perspectives.

Speaker 1: 10:40

And so now fast forward. You know, I never in a million years would have thought I would have ended up being a media analyst where I'm reading the news and working with other analysts from across the political spectrum and it's just, it's amazing how you can kind of get sucked into it. And you really had no intent to do that. But you know I had a question that you know, speaking of young adults and how I mean you and I are kind of examples of how we develop this appreciation for political communication over time? What have you learned in your studies over time? How are we able to reach out to younger young adults more effectively? You know, or are there any tools that you've learned over time that are working better than others you know? Or is it just a matter of you know what they're young and we were all young and none of us really gave a crap about it you know at that point in time. Or are young adults different today than what we were when we were younger?

Speaker 2: 11:51

Yeah, I mean, those are really good questions. So I think, to start with the last part, I do believe that the generations that we, you know, we consider like Gen Z millennials at this point, though, as a millennial, we're getting older.

Speaker 1: 12:07

That's right.

Speaker 2: 12:09

It's always funny because, like sometimes you, you know, you see these like lists of, like you know, top millennials and whatever, and it's like I think actually they might be confusing like millennial with just young person which is absolutely.

Speaker 1: 12:20

I agree with you, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:22

Yeah, yeah, we're like some of us are getting getting closer to a middle-aged person rather than Gen X.

Speaker 1: 12:27

Well, I'm Gen X. We're kind of like the invisible generation at this point.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Sure, yeah, the forgotten Right Gen. What was that? No, no.

Speaker 1: 12:37

Gen X. What was that?

Speaker 2: 12:38

Oh no, so so so, to answer your question, I think I think the answer is is yes, like younger, younger people are becoming increasingly engaged to the level that I would like to see it. No, I don't think so. I mean, like I think political conversations, public policy conversations, are extraordinarily important, not just for what happens today, but then what happens 20 years in the future. And ultimately, like, the younger voters are going to be the ones bearing the brunt of whatever decisions are made today, and I think a lot of people are starting to realize that.

Speaker 2: 13:16

The other thing that is a little bit different now is that there is almost like, if you think back so I kind of like grew up on the cusp of technology being just like so accessible 24-7. So, like going into college freshman year, facebook was just starting to become a thing. But I also remember like dial-up internet where you could not be on a computer. If a telephone call came in it would knock you off. It made that horrible, like you know, growing sound, and it's so funny making those references to. So I Talk about dating myself right Back in my day.

Speaker 2: 13:58

You have to plug a phone line into then into the computer and then it made this horrible and like it's. It's funny because, like I for a little while was teaching a course at University here in New Jersey, centenary University and their social media Studies program, which is, which is pretty cool that they, that they set that up, but like every successive class that I had, would Less and less understand the cultural references that it would make it hurt me a little bit more every year.

Speaker 1: 14:27

I'm like, alright, we're gonna do the Ferris Bueller thing, like you know who gets it and then eventually it's just kind of over the head and it just it really hurts your heart yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:37

It does, yeah, and like pay phones and things like that. But but thinking about, like you know, technology and you. So we were kind of on the cusp cusp of that. So, like in high school, for example, or even early college, like you know, we smartphones were starting to become a thing that that more and more people had. They were starting to get faster, you know, easier to use. So, you know, we kind of got to see the evolution of what that looks like.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Now kids are born With access to the internet in the palm of their hands if, if they can get their hands and then from a very young age too. So I think there's a lot of difference between how much information is available to, you know, to two younger generations now that that in some way I mean for better, for worse right, there are definitely downsides to all of that, like we've seen all of the studies about mental health and social media. But on the positive side, sometimes, right, if you can get accurate information on social media, you do also have access to news and in some ways, may even be a little bit more well-informed than my generation was, even even if you know we were trying, right, like you can. I mean I honestly Didn't know very many people who Would read the newspaper in in high school. I mean, you know, some of us would like browse the, the headlines and stuff like that, or try the you know New York for fun. They try the New York Times crossword puzzle on Friday, which was like the big challenge For some of us.

Speaker 2: 16:07

But so I think I think there's the engagement, it's, it's a number of things, but I think there's there's more on there. I think there are some Great sort of activists or representatives in in those younger generations, gen Z, millennials who are showing that Engagement is a good thing ultimately, and getting out there and voicing you know, voicing your concerns about whatever is going on is is a good thing. So I think that's the positive. Now the on the flip side of that To your question about how do we engage younger people in the political process. So take all of those things right, like access to information, this ability to almost get anything that you want sort of instant, painlessly. The political process and the and the process in government can be extraordinarily frustrating.

Speaker 1: 17:02

Yeah, extraordinarily frustrating.

Speaker 2: 17:04

Slow, I mean it like.

Speaker 2: 17:05

I mean, like you noted, right, so you were sort of smack dab in the middle of these sort of like massive cultural shifts in, in in the military and and that and that you know happens.

Speaker 2: 17:19

It feels like it's happening quickly, but it's actually like a very kind of slow, deliberate process because there are steps that you know need, you need to go through and you know, in this, in this country, we have separation of powers, at least the national level, where you have, you know, an executive, you have Congress, you have this Supreme Court and you know those those three Branches don't always, you know, move, move along in units and often don't. In fact, at this point, even the two you know houses of Congress, you know don't don't move along. So I think that could be very frustrating. And you know when, when you're hearing about all these issues like climate change, for example, you know and and as a younger person, you're thinking, well, you know it's things are getting weird now, right, like extreme weather, fires, like I mean, we had this horrible, you know orange smoke descend upon, you know, the the New York sort of metro area, for yeah, thanks, canada yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Yeah, can you just put that out actually?

Speaker 1: 18:18

right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:20

But like you can, you can kind of understand why there might be some frustration. So it's like okay, voted. Now Where's my? You know where's the change?

Speaker 1: 18:28

Why hasn't anything changed?

Speaker 2: 18:30

right and and I will I will say that, like, things do change and have changed, it's not at the at the pace that that I think is Satisfying in the sense that that people want it to be so. So I think that's. That's a difficulty in terms of communicating, though, like just from a brass tacks perspective. Tactically, the one that I could tell you what not to do is like the. The one thing that I see often Are these really like ham-fisted ways of of certain you know politicians or campaigns or advocacy groups Trying to communicate with younger voters in a way that they believe like it's, it's almost it. So I'll just back up a little bit.

Speaker 2: 19:13

So, as a millennial, right for a while it was like we were sort of studied like zoo animals, right, like you know the guys in the white lab code sitting out there with their clipboards oh, what are the millennials want? What would you know? What does the millennial think? You know it's like in the wild. The millennial gets an avocado toast and you know you, we sort of like spends a little bit of time under the microscope, like that. But a lot of that analysis, like misses, like this idea of like, authenticity and Sometimes like as a candidate. You just don't have it right and that's okay. Like you don't have to be everything to everyone, so like if you're trying to do like a tick-tock trend and it's just, you're not gonna pull it off, don't be patronizing about it.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Yeah, yeah, don't do it skip that part.

Speaker 2: 19:56

All right, do something else like. There's some really good examples of I'm drawing a blank on the name there's one member of Congress that's been a member of Congress in particular. That Is good, very good on tick-tock, but it's not because you know he's running around doing dances or Trends or anything like that. He literally sits down in front of a camera and explains what his date was like in Congress Right. So now, if you try to be like patronizing about it and was like, oh, I'm gonna do a dance, well, I try to tell you what happened in Congress today, I don't think people would listen or pay attention, or pay attention for the right reasons. So I think, like, authenticity is Is extraordinarily important.

Speaker 2: 20:34

Um, if you can pull it off, though, if you can pull off like a culturally relevant way to speak to people, then absolutely do that. But you need to have the right messengers for that. Like a good messenger message fit it's extraordinarily important or important there, um, so I think that's it. And then I mean and then, like you know, the other pieces are too, it's. You know, attention spans are Diminishing, um, unfortunately all of us all of us.

Speaker 2: 21:00

It's not just young voters, it's everybody. Like you know gen X, or you know Baby boomers, you know sitting there on the phones while watching Netflix, while you know listening to something on you know the elect or whatever. Uh, home, you know, speaker you have. So I think that's the uh. That's. The other thing, too, is is keeping things kind of like concise and and concrete, um for for people. But, uh, you know, I don't think there's any sort of magic way to Speak to younger voters other than to just treat them with, with respect and to not to not be patronizing, and then you can kind of figure out how to go from there because, like, I do think there is a genuine interest Among younger voters in in the issues. It's just a matter of like getting past all the barriers to like have those conversations and then, um, the the one, the one big fight, though I think it's really like fighting apathy Does feel like okay, vote it now. Like I said before, like now, what, like nothing happened, or it's and and that can that can be frustrating.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Yeah, yeah, it seems like the two extremes, you know, as with anything gets all the attention is either, you know, like severe apathy or just so incredibly passionate about it. It's just like on the extreme level. And now we're going to just, you know, like, uh, gluer hands to the pavement or something like that, because I don't want, you know, traffic to be able to drive by. You know, just, it seems like the two extremes really are what gets all of the attention. And then you have this core group of Young adults who are genuinely interested in what's going on, but it's it's kind of hard to to get through that noise. I mean, I know, I I taught public speaking and human communication for about 18 years at the college level and, at the end of the day, one of the things that I learned from all of those students over all of those years is who doesn't want to feel acknowledged, you know, who doesn't want to feel like they're being listened to, and even if you have a disagreement about something, if you can just Listen so that you can understand where they're coming from. And this is something that has been Reinforced, that, as a media analyst, you know, working with so many other analysts, we come to. We come to the table, we're reading all these news and we're rating the news for reliability and bias and we don't always agree, depending on what it is that we're reading. But we really do have to take that moment to Understand, you know. Let's give the space for this person to be able to really Express how they're thinking about this and ask the questions that they need to ask, in an environment where you're not going to just kind of Everybody pile on them because they're asking a question.

Speaker 1: 23:44

And I think, you know, for young people you know, just from having these conversations with them in the classroom, for them, for many of them I know they have had that experience where it's just they're feeling less and less inclined to have those types of conversations because it is so loud and If you don't agree with someone, there's this fear of, oh, now I'm going to be cancelled, or now I'm going to be called out, or I'm going to end up on somebody's tick tock or you know something, something Bad is going to result from this, and you know. So that's really challenging, I think, for young adults to Try to navigate through this World that we've developed, you know, with technology and social media and All of the emotions that are coming with it. You know it's so incredibly challenging. I do not envy being a young person.

Speaker 1: 24:41

In today's day and age of technology and in the current political climate it's um, I'm sure it's not easy for them. I have a daughter who is 25 and a son who is 26 and I hear it from them all the time about how challenging it is to To have these types of conversations amongst themselves. Have you been a part of any polls that have talked to Young people to kind of gauge how are they feeling about their ability to just express what they're thinking about Different topics of the day and whether or not they're confident that they can Express their feelings or their thoughts without fear of being canceled or called out? You know, on social media, you know it takes a thousand people to build a building and just one Malkin tent with a stick of dynamite to ruin it all.

Speaker 1: 25:34

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Speaker 2: 26:23

Yeah, I haven't. I haven't seen any polling specifically on that issue of ability to Express oneself. You know, the question really is like what, what is the outlet for that? So, is it the active voting, which can be a very public or very quiet sort of thing? You know it could be activism on, you know, social media, activism in real, real spaces, I think.

Speaker 2: 26:58

Overall, as long as I think most people have a good sense of how to have a conversation that does evolve into and you make a really good point, I think that applies to all voters, not just younger voters is that the extremes or anger whenever you disagree with someone?

Speaker 2: 27:22

From our perspective, this is one of the hardest things, because obviously, or maybe not so obvious to folks that are listening, is that when you work in the political sphere, you often pick a side and you choose the side that you most agree with ultimately. So, personally, I have some very strong opinions about certain things. Those are my opinions, and then there's a broad spectrum of things that fall within a range of things that I find to be productive for society, for our country, and I believe these things for reasons that I can get into. However, I will say this the hardest thing is trying to not come to a conversation with bringing those ideas and then looking at the person across the table for me, and if they say simply, I just don't agree with you, saying, well, you're an idiot and here's why Right.

Speaker 1: 28:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:19

I mean that shuts down immediately, right?

Speaker 2: 28:23

So that's part of the issue is because a lot of our political discourse does in fact happen at a mass communication level, where it's hard to have those engagements, whereas if you're doing canvassing, knocking on doors, you can get into these deeper conversations where it's like you really look at two different voters from two different sides of the political spectrum and there is a lot in common for most people where there's overlap and in fact a lot of the policies that someone is supporting may in fact be good for the person who doesn't think that they support those policies for whatever reason, because they're looking at it through a partisan frame.

Speaker 2: 29:08

But to get back to the idea of younger people being able to express themselves again, I think you do see in polling, focus groups, things like that Again frustration that certain not even certain candidates, but just like in general like our political system isn't really giving voice to them and no one's actually like effectively I don't want to say nobody, but very few people are actually carrying what they would consider to be their voice in the political process, which kind of is an interesting thing and again I think this applies to all voters too is we've almost gotten away from I don't want to say almost, because we really have gotten away from, yes policy matters like what you stand for.

Speaker 2: 29:57

So, like in an ideal world, if you're evaluating two candidates, you would look at policy positions for candidate A, policy positions for candidate B, and then you're going I like this, this and this, this, this and this, and then, on balance, you make the decision between the two. And then we found ourselves in a position where it's a vibes kind of based decision, right, all vibes, so you could have two and you see this a lot during primary elections right, where you don't have that partisan frame actually, so you're not picking between a D or an R.

Speaker 2: 30:31

You're picking a D and a D or an R and R, and I think that gives you some interesting insights into how people consume political information, then give voice to their own concerns, or hope that someone else will give voice to their own concerns, is that, like, a lot of those candidates and most and two of the major parties are going to have this like 95% overlap in in their actual positions on policy. Now, vibes, that's a different thing. You know who's going to fight harder, who is, you know, more combative or who's funnier, who's more energetic, or I mean there are all sorts of things that that you know people evaluate as as a part of the communication process, so so that all adds up to to kind of an interesting. Interesting thing is like, even if you do have a candidate who does give or who does support a lot of policies that younger voters might like, there may be this disconnect because of that vibes problem, right, like they're just not communicating themselves in a way that is satisfying in today's kind of media environment. Right, it's not snappy enough, it's not, you know, funny enough, it's not irreverent enough, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 31:53

So, but that's not an indictment of any particular age group or voter. It really is just the reality of how we all consume, consume media today. And again, I think we can get to a place where you know we can communicate effectively, like as long as you're thinking about your message and how you're delivering that message in the messenger, but but like I don't know it's. It definitely is an interesting thing. So I think it's kind of like an inconclusive thing, like I can't give you an exact answer on like do young voters feel like they can communicate in a way that will, where they can have debates and then and then not get, not get canceled for certain certain viewpoints.

Speaker 2: 32:33

I always I tend to be a little bit more of an optimist on this front, like you know. I think, if you you're careful about how you phrase things, that you can have the, the debate, yeah and, and not find yourself in in hot water. But you know, there has to be some degree of empathy as well, which I think is missing. But again, that's like on a one-on-one sort of level. It's hard to communicate empathy at a mass, on a mass communication level. I mean, some people can do it really well, but for the most part it's just like on a one-on-one conversation, you know sitting around the, you know lunch table and you know your college's cafeteria or something.

Speaker 1: 33:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:18

If you communicate with empathy, I think you'll be okay. But I don't know if people realize that, like I'm not sure I haven't seen you know hard numbers on, on, yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:26

But no, I think, I think you're onto something I you know, with the experiences that we've had as as analysts coming together to discuss difficult topics, one of the advantages, I think, of kind of putting us into this, this weird experiment, if you will, you know where you're. You're talk about the news, you're forced to talk about the news and now you gotta you know, see if you can't agree on it or, at least you know, arrive at some understanding of where you think it is. You know on on the, the political bias and and how reliable it is. You know you don't know where your own blind spots are and in this is going to lead to a question I'm really curious about for you. You know we come to the table and we're all very clear about our political positions. You know we always have a right lane, a left lane and a center. You know, and everybody knows, what everybody else is. You know where they land on the political spectrum and and that's what helps drive our conversations in an authentic way.

Speaker 1: 34:26

And then, oh wow, I didn't. I would have never even thought about that, you know, in that particular story, because I'm just not even. That's not even my perspective. So we're learning a lot about our own blind spots and how to have these conversations about difficult topics, but we're also realizing at least you know, this has been my experience. I'm a conservative, so as a conservative, you know who's an analyst. When I come to the table and I'm reading the news, I have to constantly remind myself it's not my job to advocate for a position right now. It's my job to read this article and to determine whether this article is advocating for a position. And so you really do have to work to separate your personal feelings and your personal beliefs and your political beliefs from being able to do that job. Is that something similar for what you do in your world of political campaigning? Or, because you are in the world of political campaigning, you are able to take your own personal beliefs and political beliefs and and allow that to be a driver for how you're working with different candidates?

Speaker 2: 35:41

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good. That's a really good question too. So I think that there there's a pretty broad spectrum of how people in my position handle that. So some, some people definitely, and I think you know, I get the sense that we may be actually on the opposite sides of the political spectrum even, which is good. I think this is really cool, you know cool way to have a conversation because, like we're, we started out having which I think is actually a good demonstration of like how you can get to like actual interesting information or at least some common viewpoints, or at least have a compelling conversation about something is you start off like actually having a conversation about things without like looking through those little, those lenses.

Speaker 2: 36:31

But yeah, I mean I'm definitely on the opposite side of the political spectrum Something kind of handles a little bit differently. Like there's some who are like ideological purists, who, like I said, you usually pick a side right. So if you're working on one side there's not that much variance, but there is some right Like there definitely is some. So you do have, you know, consultants who will only work with like the most like, I guess, what you would consider the most progressive candidates, whereas you know some consultants will work with anyone on the democratic side of the aisle and some will work with more centrist candidates or whatever.

Speaker 2: 37:14

I personally think, like I do, I don't believe, generally speaking for the most part, that my specific personal viewpoint on things is super relevant to working with clients, because I think if you take a step back, you realize that you agree again with 95% of what anybody is saying in any particular race and then, at least from my perspective, you try to work with people that you feel are going to do the right thing, are going to advocate in the right ways and actually be able to affect the kind of change that you want to see, as opposed to sometimes bluster.

Speaker 2: 38:03

There's a little bit and that can be again very satisfying, but it's not always the best way to get stuff done. So from my perspective I will say that we always kind of look through the lens of certain values, like lines we don't cross, generally speaking. But I think beyond that, my personal political views are not especially relevant. I mean, what we're bringing to the table, as Emily is, we're professionals, right, so we have to work with our clients to develop a message that we think is going to help that. So that's the other thing where I think this comes in, because the way that I think about the world, in terms of my own personal political views, may not be the most effective way to convince someone on the other side of the aisle even that my candidate is the right candidate for the job. Oftentimes it wouldn't be right Because I think again, if you get into your own sort of hyperpartisan brain, I'd be so happy.

Speaker 1: 39:08

Oh yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who is a lawyer here I'm located in Savannah, georgia and he contacted me. This was several years ago. He said hey, I know someone who is running for Congress for the first district and I think you two really should be in contact with each other because I think you have a lot in common, despite the fact that you are on different sides of the political aisle just as far as your moral foundations and all of those things. So I was like, ok, yeah, I'll chat with her.

Speaker 1: 39:46

And we met several times and mutually respectful, had a lot of really good, meaningful conversations and, at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, even though we could agree on some of those really core values that we were talking about, when it came to, ok, how are we going to express those values? What type of actions, what type of policies would I support in order to bring that to light? That's where we saw the vast differences and it ended up being that we had to separate part ways because we couldn't get to that point where we could arrive at the agreements, everything from certain terminology to use to who to reach out to, to have conversations Because, of course, from my perspective, I'm like let's get you in front of some conservative focus groups and pick their brains and see what is it that? And at the end of the day it just didn't work. And nothing negative toward her or her beliefs. It was just a really interesting experience to have that.

Speaker 1: 41:03

That's why I'm so fascinated by what you do in your sphere and whether or not that is a part of it having to separate your own ideology from who you're working with.

Speaker 2: 41:15

Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, the other thing that is, I think, worth noting too is we're not building candidates from scratch. We don't go into a laboratory and take a drop of this, a drop of that and then put it in a machine and out pop some candidate who's in exact. Yeah, like 3D printed Right.

Speaker 1: 41:34

Here's your perfect liberal. Here's your perfect conservative right.

Speaker 2: 41:37

Right, you're going to set all the right things and you're not going to have any problems whatsoever, and you're going to be totally personable while also very thoughtful. So that's not a real thing, right? So these are people who also come to the table with their own ideas, so it's not like we are. There are moments where you work with candidates and they're like I'm thinking really hard about X issue. I need some ideas about how best to approach this. Here's the outcome.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Here are the values that I want to bring to solving this problem, but I just don't know the best way to get there. So this is why I have advisors around me, whereas sometimes a candidate will come and say I have a very, very specific viewpoint on something, and even though it's focus grouped and you do the polling and you talk to voters and it's maybe not the best thing to be talking about, but at the end of the day, the candidate is the candidate, right? And our job is to give the best possible advice. And then, if there's something that they feel strongly about, which is really honestly, they should right. They should feel strongly about things.

Speaker 1: 42:49

I would hope so. Yeah, it's not just A passion.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Right, exactly, it's not just simply exercising and saying what I think you want me to say. I have to sell my ideas and my thoughts and myself to you. So in those circumstances again, we'll put aside even our professional advice and then develop whatever framework to best deliver that specific viewpoint or message as well. So there's a little bit of having to take a step back, and you cannot get too wrapped up in how you feel emotionally too, because also you're not a focus group of one either.

Speaker 1: 43:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:29

I mean, if you're just doing this day in and day out, you need to get out and talk to other people, right, like not living your own head with this stuff.

Speaker 1: 43:36

I imagine that's a tough balancing act, though, for politicians the struggle between saying what you think your constituency wants to hear versus saying what you actually believe. I imagine that's really difficult. How to balance that, because, as someone who consumes, I have a healthy, I think, skepticism, for when I'm listening to political candidates, I'm always in the back of my mind wondering are you telling me what you think I want to hear, or are you being real with me right now and I imagine a lot of people feel the same way, especially in today's climate with politicians, and they don't exactly have the best reputations with things that are happening in the political sphere. So do you ever have candidates that have that conversation with you, that balance between oh man, but I know my constituency wants this, but I want that, and how do I rectify that?

Speaker 2: 44:40

Yeah, I mean, that is a conversation that you have and I think, at the end of the day, I think that's a good question and this is sort of where I kind of like we draw lines on certain things is that Sometimes, like a constituency will want something that is Entirely in Contravention to what you believe democracy is all about, like the, the fundamental fabric of this country, right, the idea that we have Elections, that the results of the elections then pick the winners, like it or not, like it or not, and that Calling that, calling those sorts of things into question, is extraordinarily dangerous because it it undermines everything on every side of you know, middle, right, center, whatever it is last way, yeah, undermines everything.

Speaker 2: 45:36

So so, in terms of like issues like that where we're talking about like the very fabric of our democracy and we don't run into this a lot with our clients, but, like I know it, that happens and I hear it from from other people too it's like we just don't like you can't like that. That's my position is, like you, just you cannot. So, even if your constituency wants to hear like you call into question something that is, that it's gonna be fundamentally, you know, have a deleterious effect on Democracy or elections, or or our institutions. Don't do it.

Speaker 2: 46:07

Yeah that's the area that we kind of draw the line with everything else, though. It's like, alright, like arena, talk about, you know, fiscal policy or monetary policy, you know really like boring kind of stuff sometimes. But From from those perspectives, right, like, I think there's always a way to take what the candidate believes and then take, look at when the electorate is and and develop a frame that helps people get through the door. So this is actually a conversation that we have with with a lot of our clients. It's like okay, what areas do we have to meet people where they are? And then what areas?

Speaker 2: 46:45

do we have to lead, yeah, and you can't do it all all the time right.

Speaker 2: 46:49

You cannot lead people from one place to another in each issue, because it's just not how. I mean, there's not an infinite amount of time and resources to do that, so so you have to make decisions about the things that you're going to try to lead people, pick your issues and then and then try to shift the the overton window on those types of things, and sometimes they're tiny shifts. I mean, sometimes it's not that big a leap from what you think is the best thing, basically what you think is the best thing, based on on all of the experts and policy and research that you've done and what the electorate wants to hear. So I think, again, it's so. That is a conversation that we do have. It's like how do how do we get there? But I do think a lot of it has to do not so much with the, the core substance of a message, but the framing of the message that makes it can make a world of difference and how people are hearing what you're, what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 47:42

So I think there is a way to do it. We've we've done it, you know, we do it all the time, you know, just trying to reconcile those views, because it's again, and it really is about taking that step back and saying, okay, I hear what you're saying and I hear what the can of E is saying, and it's like are they really even so different? Though, right, they even so different? And then, most of the most of the time, the answer is no, it's really not so different. It's just like let's tweak the frame With which we're talking about this particular issue. Yeah, I think people are gonna get it. So that's. That is something that we do talk about frequently.

Speaker 1: 48:17

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate your point that you made as well. I mean it, at some point you do have to think about, you know, the topics of the day and and what are the constituents you know Believing in and what are they talking about and what do they want to hear? And you know, I know, at least from my point of view, when I hear someone and people who you know, I've known for a very, very long time, you know fellow conservatives that they, you know they, they're still insisting that the 2020 election was stolen and I'm like, can we please just stop, stop. Let's just, you know, and so if there's a politician that wants to feed into that for me, I, I immediately will just close my ears because, fundamentally, I think there's something wrong with perpetuating, you know that idea. So I think it's, you know it's, I don't know, at least on my side of the aisle, I think we have a lot of challenges moving forward with our politicians because they're having to make some hard decisions on, you know, are, am I going to placate this very loud group over here or am I going to, you know, come over here and and talk with this group? You know, that's one of the things that when I was watching the midterm elections and then All the conversations that were surrounding what was happening here in Georgia governor camp, you know, and in Raffensperger, and then you know the thing that happened with Trump, I will have to say I was so incredibly relieved when I was okay, my governor has, kind of like, stood his ground, our secretary of state stood his ground and and, and I was very happy, you know, with him doing that. But there were a lot of conservatives who are in the Trump camp who are not, you know, happy with that at all. So it's it's just from a my perspective. It's really interesting looking at the candidates that are coming out and what are the choices that they are making on On who they want to, I guess, speak to, you know, and and kind of get them in their camp. It's just it's what a time, what a crazy time.

Speaker 1: 50:38

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Speaker 2: 51:21

Yeah, it's definitely interesting and there are a lot of challenges, and the one thing that I like to say is like anger is easy, right, that's like a very, it's an activating emotion, right. So it's like, once you tap into that anger, it's, it's easy, it's a little bit addicting. Yeah, I can kind of bring you back to To that place where people feel aggrieved or like something Quite go right or something was wrong during the election and all of that. But you know what was no is not true, right, everything it was. It was probably one of the most secure elections and you know the history of elections. People are watching in a way that was like never done before, so so clearly like there wasn't an issue, but like, again, that anger overlaid I mean, nobody likes to lose I mean that's, that's a big thing. And you know, it's kind of come to feel so existential that like the stakes Are so we feel like they're so high that like it is easy to tap into that anger To your point though it is possible to push, push back and like, admittedly, I was definitely rooting for the other side in the end.

Speaker 2: 52:24

Yes, but I will say this like I do think, you know, the governor probably did get, at least in the general election, a little bit of credit, even from some Democrats, if you look at the numbers that you know. He did take a stand. Now Do they agree with him on any other policy? Maybe not, but like, there are some Very fundamental things in our political system that I think are are just you can be inviolable, right, you cannot, you just should not touch it, and they're being violated every day, unfortunately In some ways. So it's, it's a tough, it is a tough way you, you, you, you, you, you, to conduct campaigns because I'm sure, actually, well, I don't want to say I'm sure I'm positive, and you hear this, you know, in the, in the back channels of you know, and sort of consultant, consultant, world, right, like Candidates on the other side of the aisle, like a lot of them want to be talking about something else.

Speaker 1: 53:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:21

About something else and and they just feel like they can't, you know, and, and you see, it's like toxic, it is very toxic in in the general election to still be doing the election denial stuff, you know. So it's, but like everyone's like, well, how do we get away from this? How do we get away from this? Or we're gonna start moving away from, and then they just can't, for some reason or something prevents them from. I mean, it's really an, you know, an electoral issue right there, afraid of losing their seat, exactly, and no one's ready to take that, that plunge.

Speaker 2: 53:51

Or they, you know, dip their toe in the water and they get, you know, they get bitten by the piranha and then they Well, don't want to do that, so it's um, I don't envy, envy that position that a lot of folks in the other side of the aisle are in, other than to say that, like I think at some point, like there has to be a decision, just be like we're not gonna do this anymore. Like we're, we have a bunch of core issues that we want to focus on, so let's do that.

Speaker 1: 54:19

And again, I'm not saying I agree with them or I think they're even necessarily good for America, but like I think, it's better for America than debating the very Foundations of our whether or not we want democracy in this country, because I think the answer is yes, we do, because the alternative is not good and you know, and to your point you know, about Anger and those heightened emotions that you know that they certainly are a driver and when we've seen this, you know, Just looking at the, the media that we're consuming, that falls below this line of you know what we consider to be high quality news and then there's just so much that falls below that line into the lower quality news and I'm there's logical fallacies at hominem. And you know, boogie man, you know, and it's us versus them mentality and it's just, and it's that driver. And if you're someone, that is all you're doing is you're consuming. You know those hyper partisan type of Media sources and you know, on either side, because we see it on on both sides, you know, of course you become even more embedded in that identity of you know what it means to be a Progressive, or, you know, or a liberal, or a Republican, you know, or a, you know a, a patriot. You know those labels, that that we like to call ourselves and and we have no idea About the conversations that are happening on the other side and it's just, it's Confirmation bias all over the place.

Speaker 1: 55:49

It's it's a really difficult thing to try to Transcend. You know, getting people out of their. You know they're embedded. They really do get embedded in those identities and and I'm sure it's it's very difficult for candidates. Do you often give them advice on Particular sources that would be better to stay away from versus sources that would be better to? Yeah, this, this will be a good source to get your word out. You know, do y'all do that as well with with your advice, that you get them absolutely.

Speaker 2: 56:29

I think there are a number of factors that go into it. So there are certain candidates who Are just really good. So everyone kind of brings a different skill set to the table too. So you have some, some candidates who are really good with you know an interview, some that are really good on the stump, you know, at rallies and things like that, some that are just like maybe not so good at those two things but, but you put them in a diner with a group of voters and they're gonna knock it out of the park because they can connect on that one-on-one Level. So you kind of have to know who you're, who you're working with At that point. So in some cases, like our inclination is like if you have to win you know a general election in, in most places, I have no problem with candidates going on news, you know, or engaging with news sources that are or not even necessarily like news sources, but also like I.

Speaker 1: 57:27

When I say news, I mean also commentary too, because it like oh yeah, oh yeah, that's just, that's like the vast majority of it. It's right.

Speaker 2: 57:34

Right, it's not really hard. Hard news it's. It's a commentary masquerading as hard news, and so I'll say, like you, absolutely can. You just have to be prepared for it. You have to not get sort of an into an emotional tangle over it, because that, like the job of the host and I think this is this is one of the things that like was interesting to learn.

Speaker 2: 57:53

You know, getting into this business is that Journalists, commentators, you know, opinion columnists, they're all they all have a job to do and and that job is not my job, right, they're not. They're not here to make my life easier, yeah. Or the candidates life easier, right. And so once you realize that you're like, okay, like, can you really get offended by, like, a negative news story here, negative news story there? It's like, no, they're doing their job. Now the question is do you want your Narrative to be a part of that story or do you want to be completely left out of it?

Speaker 2: 58:25

And I think there are arguments for most of the time yes, you do want your narrative to be a part of that story, even if it's gonna have a negative tilt, as long as you go in there with good humor and you engage in good faith and have have your answers and viewpoints really sharp, then I think you're Okay, like I think it's okay and you should do that. There are times where I would say no, like do not engage with the particular news source or commentator Strictly because, like they have showed Repeated bad faith, like they're just not interested, like they'll continue to interrupt you, they'll try to, you know, create some sort of Issue and like, if you're not ready for that, then and or or it's just, like it's so blatantly ridiculous that that it's almost insurmountable, no matter how good you are in an interview. Then I would say, like you know what Not worth going on there, because they're just their. Their agenda is is very clear. It's not absolutely.

Speaker 2: 59:28

Roll roll over you. There was an interesting thing, though Recently was with, was it Gavin Newsom on was Hannity. I think that interview was really interesting, right, so like I think, in that case, like the, I Mean it, but again, like I don't, I don't love Hannity, right, like obviously right, yeah, yeah, the conventional wisdom you would think would be like maybe that's not the best use of your time.

Speaker 2: 59:55

Exactly, exactly. But I think, like the the thing is like if, if you can do it and go in there and keep your cool and I think avenues and did a great job of doing that. And like Pete Buttigieg does it all the time in the Democratic side of the aisle as well on Fox News, you know he's he's very measured and is able to deliver a message Like that. And again, it depends on, like, what position you're into. So like being like a cabinet secretary or a governor or senator or member of Congress is Also different than being the president of the United States too. Like there's a certain like dignity at the presidential level that, like you know, you can actually pick and choose a little bit more. But lower down on the ladder I think you can be a little bit more more flexible and perhaps adventurous with stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

But but the Hannity episode I mean you have to like there are people who listen to Hannity who have not heard the Democratic viewpoint on anything Right, and it's probably a good thing that they do actually hear that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

Whether or not they buy it at the end totally different question. But so I wouldn't say there's like a hard and fast rule that we approach things with, but we do have the conversation I'm always inclined to like the more you can engage, the better off you're gonna be. It's only because you're gonna be reaching people, and that also is a function of how fragmented our media landscape is. So it's not like you can just go on cronkite Right and your center the country anymore. You have to like figure out like, okay, well, you got. You have some people watching CNN, some people are watching MSVC, some people are watching Fox and you know on the cable and and still that's All of those combined, still a small fraction of the overall population of the country. And then you have some people who are still reading newspapers, but then a lot of people are looking at their phones or, you know, checking. Well, it's not what is?

Speaker 2: 1:01:42

it. Twitter, x, x, twitter, whatever it's X now.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

X Twitter. It's like, literally, but now is X the platform formerly known as Twitter. But people are looking at their, their platform. So it's it's a matter of of trying to be everywhere, right, and that's. And that's even podcasts, right, like you know. They're really great. I mean, you have a loyal audience of people who listen to you. It's great to be on podcasts, you know, if you, if you can manage to do that. So I am inclined to say, like, go on everything, don't be super defensive about stuff and just get out there, just know what you're getting into.

Speaker 1: 1:02:21

Yeah, exactly, I'm prepared for that.

Speaker 2: 1:02:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:02:23

Yeah, I gotta tell you, matt, this has been, at least for me. I don't know about you listeners, but for me this has been an awesome conversation. I really enjoyed this. I can't believe we've actually been talking, for I mean, it's been a good hour now already. That time has just flown by. I do want to go ahead and wrap up, but before I do, I wanted to ask your opinion or or if you have any advice for our listeners. We are getting into 2024 and we already know election season is. It's here. Okay, I'm just gonna say it's here. There's no gearing up for 2024. We're already geared up. So what type of advice would you have for our listeners, you know, going into this next election cycle, as far as the being consumers of communication, you know, what advice do you have for them? As far as you know how to listen, what to listen to, what to listen for, anything like that.

Speaker 2: 1:03:24

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think there are two, two sort of parallel tracks of advice that that I would, that I would give. So the first is communicating in your personal life around some of these issues, because it's going to be present like every day for a lot of us in a lot of different places, whether it's the workplace or at home, or with neighbors or friends. And then there's there's the consuming, the news, the news piece, like, like you said, and I think in both of those parallel tracks, just from a consumer perspective it's, it's best to acknowledge or observe your emotion when you're reading something or hearing something and take a minute and be like okay, like I'm angry about this.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

All right, I see that. Why. Like what, what about this makes me angry. And then if you don't have a good answer to that or or you know, or missing a part of the of the puzzle, like go look somewhere else for for an answer. Look, look in a place that you wouldn't normally, you know, in a new source that you normally wouldn't consume, you know, try to try to figure, figure it out. Also, like there are, I do I do want to just say this to, and I'm sure you see this all the time too, like there are just like junk sources of information on the.

Speaker 2: 1:04:47

Oh, absolutely junk, like absolute junk, and no amount of like, both sizing, like oh well, this side or that side is ever going to make those outlets any better. It's just junk, it's garbage, it's, it doesn't. There's nothing in there that's, that's going to be any of use. And and if you're, you know, really digging down to the bottom of the Google barrel, there you're not going to find anything of use, right? So? But there are again, like, for better or for worse, like most of the major news outlets out there have some degree of credibility, credibility and editorial standards that you can kind of count on. And you know, looking at the different bents of different things, you know you can, you can find information.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

So I would say, like, look in places that you wouldn't normally look, but avoid like the really like crazy, like anything that sounds like excessively nuts for the most part could be totally nonsense. So take a minute before you go ahead and, and you know, slam that share button on Facebook and, and you know, share whatever meme or thing that that you see there on onto your own timeline. So that's, that's the advice that I would give is like, kind of observe your emotions a little bit on on how you're responding to things because I think, like we, we it's so automatic and we're reading something that like you feel the anger, but then you don't actually like recognize that you're angry about it, you just, and then you know that thumb is moving toward that, that share button that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1: 1:06:17

There's there's something in that article that is causing you to to feel a certain way. So to be able to kind of analyze that for a little bit and look at it like what is it about this, I think that's fantastic advice. I mean, that's what we have to do as soon as we find that. You know what? I feel a bit triggered at the moment. What's what's going on here? Let's take this apart. I see, look at the language just being used. There's a lot of political positioning happening in here, and so I think that's wise advice.

Speaker 1: 1:06:47

As consumers of communication, we just have to be mindful of what it is that we're taking in. You're right, there's a lot of junk out there. We got to be mindful of that. I don't think having a slight bias is inherently bad. I mean, that's what makes democracy right. I mean, we will have differences of ideas of how to move forward with certain you know policies, but that's the beauty of it. We should be able to talk about those things. You know, having different perspectives is critical in a democracy, I think. But yeah, if we can stay away from the hyper partisan stuff, I think we'll all be better for it. So, matt, thank you so much for for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and your experience in this field. I think political communication is just endlessly fascinating. I'm just so happy that we were able to have this conversation, and I know the listeners got a lot out of it as well. It's just, I've truly, truly enjoyed having you here.

Speaker 2: 1:07:53

Yeah, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it too.

Speaker 1: 1:07:54

So anybody who is interested in following up with you or learning more about your organization, how can they do so?

Speaker 2: 1:08:03

We're using LinkedIn a lot these days, so you can find me on LinkedIn Matt Creighton, k-r-a-y-t-o-n. It's an unusual spelling so I think I might be the only Matt Creighton spell that way on the planet. So there you go, super easy to find. You can also find Albalytics, which has, you know, we have some more sort of corporate focused insights on various communication issues on there on that feed. So you can find us on LinkedIn, on the website and and you know, we're starting to get into the threads to a little bit. So if you yeah, that's.

Speaker 1: 1:08:36

That's going to be an interesting one in it.

Speaker 2: 1:08:38

Yeah we'll see if it's got staying power. You know we'll see, but yeah, we're giving it a shot. So so yeah, those are, those are the spots on on on the web that you can find us, and and again, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:50

Absolutely, and I'll make sure that we have all those links in the show notes for everyone. All right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed today's show. I know I did, and I hope all of you have a wonderful rest of your day. All right, y'all take care now. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review.