Communication TwentyFourSeven
The Communication TwentyFourSeven podcast is a captivating and insightful show hosted by Jennifer Arvin Furlong, a communication expert and motivational speaker. With her warm and engaging style, Jen explores the fascinating world of effective communication, offering valuable tips, strategies, and stories that empower listeners to enhance their interpersonal relationships, professional interactions, and personal growth.
Communication TwentyFourSeven
Navigating Workplace Communication in the Digital Age with Antoni Lacinai
Have you ever stopped to think about the power of your words and how they can shape your professional success? That's exactly what we tackle in a captivating conversation with communications maestro, Antoni Lacinai.
As we navigate through the digital age, communication is becoming more critical in leadership than ever before, particularly in the complex dynamics of hybrid work environments. We challenge the idea that everyone should aim to be a thought leader or an expert in their field and discuss the role of leaders and managers in fostering a climate of safety and openness, particularly for remote teams. Antoni helps us unpack the intriguing concept of 'focus flow' and the importance of creating virtual social spaces for employees. We also explore the intricate dance between leaders and managers when making decisions, and the different qualities they bring to the table.
In this thought-provoking discussion, Antoni also enlightens us on the different levels of listening and finding the balance between micromanaging and abdicating to effectively coach people. We discuss the delicate process of delivering bad news with empathy and the value of personalized conversations. As we close, Antoni offers a special gift - a free download of his upcoming book, a testament to his commitment to making the world a better place through better communication. Listen in to learn how to strive for effective communication, not perfection, and transform your professional life one conversation at a time.
Learn more about Antoni's work at https://antonilacinai.com/
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Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong. Thank you all. We have been working a long time to try to get this next guest on the show, and mostly it's my fault, but we have been in communication since late last year to get Antony on the show as a guest. I am so happy to say that we finally made it happen Again, not his fault, completely my fault. So, antony, I just want to welcome you to the show and thank you so much for your patience and for your willingness to come on the show, even though this has been a long time coming. I am so happy to have you here so we can have a fantastic conversation about workplace communication.
Speaker 2:You know the expression good things comes to those who wait. There we go, it's us. I look forward to this too.
Speaker 1:I agree so much. That's fantastic. So why don't we get the audience caught up first before we dive into our conversation? Why don't you tell them a little bit about what you do today and, as you share what you're into today, Kind of take us back a little ways to how did this all begin for you? How did you get into this area of workplace communication, becoming an expert? You know helping people. Tell us a little bit about that journey for you.
Speaker 2:All right. So what I do today is that I do many two things. One is that I do communications, coaching and training, and the second part, which probably is the biggest part, is that I'm out delivering keynotes around the world around the same topic, which is communication and how it's linked to engagement and how that is linked to performance and results. So that's kind of what I do every day. If you can imagine that we have a traffic light in our brain, I want every brain to turn green. That's kind of my vision of this. I just want people to get along better. I guess that's the one thing. There's so many pivotal moments that we all have. You know the sliding door moments and all that. If I should pick one, which one should that be? I was working for a big global telecom company at the end of the 90s and I remember one of my colleagues took me by the arm and said, hey, we are going on an audition, our company will go on a global roadshow and they need presenters and I said, fine, let's do it. I was already into that topic. I liked to meet customers and work with colleagues and just cooperate and collaborate and work with communication. So that was kind of what I liked to do anyway. So we went to this audition and there was Mike and there was James doing the assessors and they said you know what? We already have speakers. We need the program leaders. This is like a TV format. Are you interested? And we said, wow, we're here, let's do it, let's see what happens. And so it became. You know, we both selected them to go around the world pretending to be program leaders and there was so much fun. I love it. I hope to do this all the time.
Speaker 2:But I also had a great time at the company. I was working at, ericsson, the telecom company, so I decided to just put that on hold, but the thought never left me. It was like a seed that just grew inside me and after a few years I said you know what? I just need to do this? I need to take that step and do my own thing, and that was mostly to do presentation skills, training, some MC work and running workshops and so on. And soon enough, this was 2006,. I left. So I've been around for 17 years by myself now and after a while, you know, more and more people said hey, we don't have time for two days, three days, whatever, can you just give us some inspiration on what to do? And I started to give lectures, which recently then became keynote. So the last five, six years I've been again traveling the world, hopefully inspiring people, but also giving them insights on communication and human communication in the workplace specifically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, were you always a good communicator? It has. It always come easy for you to connect with others, to easily have conversations with others. You know what was that like for you growing up, or was this something that you had to focus on and intentionally develop these skills along the way?
Speaker 2:I've definitely developed the skills, but I did also have talent from the start. I am completely useless around things like you have to assemble things or repair things. I don't know how to do that. You know, I cannot even assemble a simple billy bookshelf from IKEA. I don't know how to do it, it just doesn't work for me.
Speaker 2:But I needed to be good at something else, and you know how you get kind of positive reinforcement when you do something that you know talented at or you just have did something right. That was the one thing for me. So already early on in school I found that I had no fear of standing up and saying something and I got some sort of recognition around that and I cannot develop that skill along the way. So, yeah, it was some sort of talent. But talent is not enough and we all know that we can be better regardless of which level we start at. So yeah, it's been both I would say both some sort of talent, but then lots and lots and lots of training, conscious training around this as a salesperson, as a marketer and then, of course, as a speaker the professional speaker that I do today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's one of the things that I talk about when I talk about developing communication skills is it absolutely is a journey, no matter where you are, we all have this foundation that we're starting from, and so it takes time and effort, you know.
Speaker 1:It takes intention to be able to develop these different areas of communication, and I don't care how much of a natural talent you are. There's always something that we can learn, and this is one of the reasons why I absolutely love doing this podcast is I get to speak to so many different people, and every single time I have a conversation, I'm learning something new. It's so incredibly exciting for me to be able to, you know, be in this space, and one of the things that I wanted to highlight, now that I have you here on the show, is you don't realize it, but I have known about you for quite some time and it didn't click until after we started communicating about having you on this show. I was like man, I recognize the name because we had connected online. I was like I recognize the name. Where, where have I seen this name? I know this name and you know what I realized your TEDx talk that you did about what? Maybe six years ago, or something like six or seven years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2017. That's right, and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember I was teaching communication courses and I found your TED talk online and I used it in my class for a couple of reasons. Number one I thought the message was really good. It was a really good message, so I wanted to force my students because you know, when you have a class of students, they're like a captive audience, so like you're going to listen to this guy and the message that he's going to send and we're going to talk about it in class. But then the second reason I had them listen to it is because I would always like to have them do a critique on a live speech presentation.
Speaker 1:You know, let's break down the presentation skills. Let's not only break down the message, but why is this a good presentation? What are some of the things that are at work here that makes it so effective? How is he connecting with his audiences? So when I made the connection, I was like, oh my God, this is that guy. I can't believe I have shown his TEDx talk in so many of my classes and this is like five years ago that this was happening when I was teaching this particular class. So it's exciting for me to be able to just, yeah, talk with you now.
Speaker 2:I mean, I had no, I had no idea. As you said, jen, I didn't know that this was, this was flattering. Wow, I need to check out those, those feedback reports.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm happy to say you got some really good feedbacks.
Speaker 2:I bet you.
Speaker 1:I can dig up those the critiques, though, because I had them write analysis papers on on your presentation, so this will be something after the conversation.
Speaker 2:That was so nice of you to tell me that I did get in.
Speaker 2:I got a LinkedIn message from somebody who said that they did the same thing for Stanford students in one class as well. So obviously it's spreading that TEDx. It was fun to do. It was fun to do. Do you want to know a secret about TEDx? You know you have like seven cameras and if somebody stumbled on a word or something like that, they do a retake. So I had to redo the whole first five minutes because it was the wrong background. There was a slide on that was not supposed to be there. So when I did and I realized it when I turned around after five minutes saying oh, that's not supposed to be there, but I just kept going. And then when I was done, I said to the organizer we need to redo the whole beginning. So I had to do that one more time.
Speaker 2:But fortunately I practiced it so much. You know it's like the one speech that I practiced the most over and over again. If you look at my script that I written and what I say is like 95% the same words coming in. So I practiced it so much because it's outside of my control. I cannot, you know, take it away. It's TEDx material, not mine anymore. So if you really scrutinize it, there's a moment, but they just change camera so you can't realize it, that I actually had to do two takes to make that happen. That's an insight for everyone who's listening. It may look perfect perhaps, but there are things going on behind the scene.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy that you shared that, because I'm also a TEDx speaker and I'm a TEDx coach, and we had our TEDx event just yesterday here in Savannah and it wasn't the beginning of one of the talks that we had to re-record, it was the ending to one of the talks. So something similar in that the ending just did not go as planned. You're right, there are just some things are outside of our control, but luckily they do have the technology and they have the people in place who are able to. Once it finally gets out there in YouTube land, it looks like how it should have gone all along, and that's, I guess, the most important thing when it gets to that broader audience. But it's really fun to be able to have some of that insider perspective and to be able to share that, yeah, so all your listeners will know this as well.
Speaker 1:So one of my questions, since we are talking about TEDx now, is when you have conversations with leaders all over the world and you know, I don't think it matters whatever industry you know leaders are in Do they often ask you about becoming presenters, keynote speakers, and whether or not that is something that could help them be viewed as thought leaders within their perspective industries? Is that something that you encourage them to take on? You know what? What is your advice to leaders when they approach that idea of becoming a keynote speaker or doing a TEDx, something like that?
Speaker 2:It's not that often that it happens. Actually, most of them want to just be, you know, doing some some nice presentation, giving some nice presentations to their clients, or they have like an all-employee rally and they want to be really good at it so that they don't Start to stumble and all that, so that that's mainly what they do. I do have some clients who says you know what? We want to have an impact on the industry, we want to build a brand, so let's be the rock stars on different conferences, and I helped them with that yeah.
Speaker 2:Not many has said that they want to go the whole way of being a keynote speaker or a TEDx speaker. Very few actually said that. Wow, not that they ask me to, to just Improve their game so that they can get their message across in an inspiring and effective way. That in itself shows that they have some sort of self-consciousness. They understand that this is important for them, that they can improve. Even if they're good, they can still improve. This is probably one of those misconceptions on time that if they're good, that they just become lazy. No, they become even more interested in improving their game. So building on their strength and so on, oh yeah the the easier.
Speaker 2:You have another opinion, you have another experience. On that one yeah yeah, well, it's just.
Speaker 1:When you're on social media, you know, especially on different platforms like LinkedIn, you seem to be bombarded with Individuals who are constantly saying that thing. You know, you, you want to be considered a thought leader within your industry. You want to be looked at as someone who is the go-to expert. You know the quote guru, which, by the way, full disclosure. I hate that word guru. I really don't like that word at all. For some reason, it just rubs me the right. When I see guru, I just immediately, you know, just prickle at that, for some reason.
Speaker 2:What about the fallacy or fortune? Either or.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I was just curious as to your opinion, you know, and in your experience, on that, because I just I haven't been so sure that that is something that everybody needs to Put on their to-do list. I'm gonna, you know, worldwide domination and I'm gonna become the premier keynote speaker so that everybody takes me seriously within my industry.
Speaker 2:I don't believe that, if you are an executive in a company, that you should aim for being a professional keynote speaker, because then you changed profession. Yeah, yeah, you're a professional keynote speaker. Then that's your work. Your speech is your product.
Speaker 2:Yeah what we can talk about here are probably Free-noters. You know they already have a salary. They want to build their brand or sell expensive Programs from stage. There are tons of conferences where this is the business model. I mean. I look, I'm looking all over the world of different conference where I should think I can add some value and you can be surprised how many of those conferences that says we don't pay speakers, they pay us or they come for free because they want to whatever you know show their brand or or be thought leaders or Sell from stage, and I said that's not my business at all. I don't sell from stage. The speech is my product.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can be. They can be a good presenter if you want to. You know separate the words here. They can be really good presenters. They can be Free-noters. There's even a part about free notice, but it's a really good one, by the way. So they can do quite a lot on that and be really good at presenting as well. They can be really good, but that that doesn't mean that it's their profession, which also means that they don't put as much time as a professional speaker would in order to get that.
Speaker 1:If you are a speaker or an event planner, you really should check out the innovation women website. Innovation women has placed hundreds of women on stages across the world. Whether you are a beginner looking to book your first speaking gig or a seasoned professional looking to expand your connections, I highly recommend that you give innovation women a try. I'm so glad, thank you. Thank you for saying that, thank you for sharing that, because I think there is a misconception out there.
Speaker 1:When you start getting into leadership roles, there's it seems to be, at least from social media and the things that I've been looking at there seems to be a push. I don't know. There's a huge industry behind it as well. There's like a million and one coaches out there that are telling you that you know They'll put you on the world's largest stages and and you're right, it is a completely different profession that you're getting into, and so I like that we can focus this conversation on leaders within their individual industries and how can they be better at their Communication with their workforce, with their, with the other members of their leadership team? You know how.
Speaker 1:What are some things that they can do to ensure that they're helping you know things run smoothly, that they're creating this communication climate. That is one that is welcoming, you know, one that is open, one that is going to help their workforce thrive. And I think that's a challenge, especially, you know, over the last few years, of course, everybody Getting through this pandemic. Now that we're all getting back together again in the workplace, well, some are back together again and some are kind of like, kind of back together, but now some of us are working remote still.
Speaker 2:It's a hybrid Now isn't it. It's a lot of hybrid work going on right now where you use you're at the office a couple of days per week, perhaps.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or you move away and you're you, you are remote completely.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's so many things we can do there in order to do that. And what you just said is that you know how can we create this and foster this environment of openness and and safety and and so on, and and this is the interesting thing when I started to look at communication, I looked at communication purely, but now I realized that that I look at psychology instead, so I take a much broader perspective of it and then kind of figure out you know what makes us Be motivated or not. So I look at motivation, I look at goal setting, I look at the different types of tribe psychology, other types of psychology which I find so interesting, because in all of that it's about us getting along with each other. So that's, that means that communication is kind of central.
Speaker 2:I would say Communication between people is like electricity in a modern society. Without it, nothing works. But communication in itself is not the end of the end game, it's the means to the end game. So there are other things that that are played that the effect that you want to reach with that communication Is is what I would believe is the most important thing. But you can't reach it unless you know how to. You know meet, greet and treat people more or less.
Speaker 1:You just said something so important and I want to make sure that we don't miss what you just said that communication in itself is not the end, it's the means. So when you think about that statement, that's so important, because we hear all an awful lot, you know, take these communication courses and become a better communicator, as if like, yeah, you're right, it's great to study communication, to become more effective at it, but the question really should be okay, what? What is the goal here? What is it that I'm trying to achieve? I think, if you're a leader, if you're a manager, if you're someone who works in any organization, at any capacity, how are you going to use those communication skills? Like, what truly is the end goal? That is such an important point that you that you made. I just wanted to make sure that that wasn't missed by a lot of people, because we don't talk about that part of it enough. I, at least, I don't. I don't see people talking about that part enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the reasons I also studied goal setting and goal psychology To figure out that part, because then I get the whole link between communication, engagement, performance, goals, results, more or less. So that's kind of that, that's kind of into that. Those are interlinked, I would say interdependent on each other. If you have good communication, more engagement, more engagement, more performance and so on. So it's kind of Having that chain understanding that you need all three, all of them, but you won't get it unless you also have a good communication. So it's needed as an enabler to get there. So, yeah, good, good of you to point it out.
Speaker 1:So a lot of organizations, like I just pointed out, are having a hybrid you know work arrangement for their workforce. Have you seen? What do you see as the biggest hurdle now? I mean, everybody knows that. Ah, I gotta find a way to keep my employees engaged. I have to find a way to make sure that everybody understands what our mission is, everybody understands what our goals are.
Speaker 1:So there's a difference between messaging right and making sure everybody understands. This is what our mission is, this is what our goals are. But how are we actually, on a day-to-day basis, what are the things that we're doing to achieve those goals? What are the things that we're doing in order to make sure that everybody, you know, is moving forward in the same direction? I imagine that's become a topic of conversation as of late, and a lot of different organizations, different you know leaders with whom you have these conversations. What do those conversations sound like? What? What are y'all talking about? You know, in terms of the connection between psychology and communication, you know what are some of the things that you're learning now.
Speaker 2:So 2020, I did a survey of about five, six hundred leaders around the world about their Challenges when it comes to remote leadership. And then 2021 I did the same, but this time with hybrid leadership challenges. Just to give an idea, and it was all free text. It was a nightmare to kind of figure out what it was, but I finally found, you know, kind of distilled it into five, six different challenges that they had, and and engagement is one of them, for sure, how can you get people engaged and not feeling isolated if they're not around, and so on.
Speaker 2:Hybrid, as we speak about it here with the flexible work arrangement, is we need to separate hybrid from distributed teams. You know, to separate hybrid from distributed teams. You have distributed teams where they are remote all the time. That's one scenario. But then you have those people who come into the office three days per week anyway, and then then it's not a big deal. They are in the office three days per week anyway, so you will meet each other in the richest form of communication, which is in 3d, right there in the same room. That is the richest form. You can never get anything close to that. What we're doing right now we're having a video call while we do this, and that is that is not even number second, but it is the second best Then comes nothing, and then comes nothing, and then comes phone and finally you have email, chat and perhaps smoke signals way, way down there. So so there are challenges when it comes to hybrid, for instance, and one of them is that they really try to be hybrid, for instance, in their meetings. It's really hard to have some people online, some people on site and then try to figure out how to do a good meeting.
Speaker 2:So what I've come up with after a while really thinking about this a lot is that hybrid is digital, hybrid is virtual. If you have three people calling in from somewhere else, then everybody should go digital, because then we have the same conditions, the same terms, we communicate equally, I would say. Otherwise, you will have an A team, the one in the office, and then a B team, the one who calls in, and we know how that's been with Skype and so on. You hear people whispering, laughing, giggling, writing things on the board. You cannot even see, you just feel left out. And if you feel left out, you get stress hormones in your body. I don't belong here anymore, and all of a sudden, you get disengagement and demotivation and all those things. So just realizing that you should meet on equal terms is a really good step. When it comes to hybrid, because the whole communication will be dependent on digital, on virtual. In those cases, I would say my biggest take.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so many people. I know you just pinpointed something that really bothers a lot of people in having to call in for meetings, for example. Yeah, you do feel left out. You're right, there's that group that's in the office and they're able to have those dynamic conversations, they're able to see each other. And it does create a challenge with the communication between those people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's poorer. Yeah, it's not as rich. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you're saying, if we're going to do this, then let's just have everybody call in from home, or maybe at least from their individual office they might be in the same office.
Speaker 2:People like to gather around the digital campfire, which is probably the conference phone or something like that. They do like that. But hey, sit in the same room but wear headphones, use your own laptop, still have that kind of same or equal terms. So you can be in the same room anyway. But you don't have to, but you can't. But you know it as well. Everyone who listens to this will know it.
Speaker 2:It's just one of those feelings that you don't want to have the feeling of being on the outside. This is engraved in our DNA. We want to belong. We want to belong so strongly that some people create cults or very strange ideas about the world being flat or something like that, just because they want to belong. Like one book I read it said you'd rather belong than to be right. It's so important for you to be part of. So as soon as you feel expelled for any reason, your alarm system in the brain goes berserk. The red light in that traffic light goes just kind of be like a police Woo, woo, woo, something's wrong, I'm left out, and that does not create an optimal way of communicating. You cannot use your whole brain if you feel threatened in any way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and now you're opening up the door to create. Well, you have the conditions now where you're creating the opportunity for an us versus them type of mentality, and that is completely the opposite of what you're hoping to achieve as a leader of any team, I'm sure. So this is really important to be able to remember when we're making these big decisions. About team meetings. What does your research show, or what have you seen in terms of burnout and having too many meetings? Now, I mean, there has to be a boundary.
Speaker 1:So many people are working from home and there's an incredible amount of work to do, but sometimes, when you work from home, it seems like there's not that off button, especially if you have a workforce that's kind of all over the world, or even if you're in the same country, like here in the US. Right, we could even be in the same country, but we're so big, we've got these different time zones that you have to consider with the workforce. So was that something that came up in the research that you've done regarding some of the issues and the challenges that they're facing?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was one of those six challenges work-life balance. When I started in 2020, I had a higher rate of people being, or leaders being, suspicious. I wonder if they will do the work now that I can't control them. They had this really micromanaging style, probably real fear of losing the control, but that was almost gone when I did my 2021 study. It was more about hey, how can I stop them from not working too much? And also, how do we erase the us and them mentality, because what happened then, and still do, is that you have those silos.
Speaker 2:So when you work remotely, you probably have a pretty good communication going on within your team, within your department, but nothing outside, while when you're at the office, you have this accidental kind of social interactions with other people as well from other departments, which would then foster new ideas perhaps, and so on, which is one of those things that we sometimes say that it's not enough to only talk to your own peers in your same department. You need to widen the scope sometime to get that bigger us, the bigger the us, the smaller them. So that was definitely one of those challenges that leaders faced. What did we do with work-life balance? On the other hand? I mean, I've been working from a home office for 17 years. I don't mind fixing the laundry and then coming back here to do some more work. It's just part of my lifestyle. But I don't have to worry about anyone else. I mean it's me, so that perhaps it's easier from that perspective.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, there's absolutely some perks to being able to work from home. I also appreciate having that flexibility. But I will tell you I have found that I miss having a place to go to sometimes. I really do miss having that opportunity to go into an office and you see different people, you have those conversations and I never really thought I would miss it that much because, being a natural introvert, I like having conversations. But after a while I'm like leave me alone. I got work to do, do not come to my office again. I need to shut the door so that I can focus and get some work done. But now that I've been doing this for a few years, I do. I have to admit I miss it sometimes. Sometimes I want someone to interrupt my day so that I have an excuse to get up from the computer and have that conversation. And I'm sure I'm not alone in recognizing like man, ok, they were all getting on the nerves, but now I miss them.
Speaker 2:I thought this was one of my fears when I started my own company. Will I feel alone? And the answer is no. I went from a hyper extrovert to an ambivert, so I feel that both of them works for me, and I have so much interaction with customers anyway. I mean, I'm out traveling, meeting them all over the place, or we have these online sessions and it's just fulfilling enough. So I don't feel that I am ever alone, but I am often by myself and I see a difference between those two.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you think it's a good idea for leadership to put together online type of meetings for the employees and it's not related to work? It's not a meeting where you're going to discuss the work itself. It's a social hour for employees who might feel isolated. Have you had conversations with leadership about holding those types of online spaces for their employees?
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, people try to do digital or virtual afterworks and having some fun, like having lunches and then having them together and so on, and after a while it wore off because people had so many meetings anyway. They had more meetings during that time that they just didn't want another meeting. I know also some people and some companies who use what they call focus flow. So they all open up a Zoom or Teams meeting, but they do their work and then they just say, hey, I have a question, and then everyone is there. That's one way of being part of, but otherwise it's not so much about that, it's more about OK.
Speaker 2:There's one word that always comes to my mind from a leadership perspective. That word is care. Care for your people, of course, for your mission, for your customers, for the planet. Care for your people. If you show that you genuinely care not to micromanage but to care, then kind of the rest will follow. I have this expression saying you get the team you deserve and you serve in capital letters, having that servant mentality, understanding as a manager. They are not there for you, you are there for them, and here's my distinction on this one. I believe that leaders serve a cause, something bigger, and then they invite people to join them on that journey. And if they get people on that journey then they are a leader. People follow that, while managers serve not only that leader but also the team that should help us get there. So that's kind of the distinction I make. I don't think many people do, but give me some thought. It works for me. Serving the people who will take us to that cause is kind of what I see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that you brought up that you look at managers and leaders in a slightly different way. Can you say more about that regarding let's focus on managers for the moment, because I know that tends to be the largest point of contention in many organizations you get someone who is congratulations, you're promoted, you're awesome at what you do, and now it's like, oh crap, I have all of these people I'm in charge of and all of the skills that got me here. They're not really helping me in this new position that I have. So what are some of those things that do distinguish what makes an effective manager versus leader? And then I would like to hear what you think are some of the qualities that maybe are similar to managers and leaders.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So first of all, you can be both a manager and a leader. You can. You can have both those kind of qualities within you. You can also be a leader without having a management position. Those are called informal leaders, for instance. They don't have the title, but people listen to them. So you have those both. It's good to know at least.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, if you look around about this, some people say that leaders people follow leaders because they want to and they follow managers because they have to. That's why we're looking at managers often get a lot of bad rep for being managers instead of leaders. So I can hear some people say we don't have a management team, we have a leadership team. Do you really have a leadership team? Are you telling me that all of them are inspiring leaders that everyone wants to follow, or just assigned for something and we just have to obey? I'm not sure about that, but I get the idea that it's highest status of being a leader.
Speaker 2:It doesn't necessarily mean that the leader is the best suited person to really get people to do the work. They might get people to want to do the work. I believe that leaders are the only one who can really present something with inspiration. The rest of us should work with involvement, coordination, helping each other out, cooperation and so on. But the pure inspiration comes probably from a leader when they have that quality. But it doesn't mean that they are the best of coordinating work or involving people to build on their specific strengths.
Speaker 2:That's probably a manager's role because they know their people best. They have a team of, let's say, 10 people and if you have a company of 1,000 people it's really hard for that one leader to know everyone of those 1,000 people. They need the managers, the line managers, the middle managers and so on to help them get to that vision that they want to go. So sometimes we're a bit too hard on managers. I would say I see it as different skill sets. So let's say, if we use three words inspire, involve and implement, if we use them as a framework, then I would say leaders inspire, managers involve and the rest of us implement. For instance, if we have that, it doesn't mean that you cannot be inspirational if you are a non-manager. It doesn't. You can still be again having showing leadership qualities. But just to give an idea, at least a rough idea, of how you can divide those three it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:Do you think there are certain qualities that leaders should look for when they're making decisions on who a good manager would be for their team?
Speaker 2:For sure. I mean first of all I said it before servant mentality, I think, is the right thing to do. If the manager believes that the team is there for them, then we have a problem, because then one of the biggest superpowers in communication I have three superpowers I talk about all the time. Perhaps we should mention them later on as well the superpower of empathy is gone. If I feel entitled to the best parking space and the best office and the best whatever, then the team will not respect you at all. They will not feel that you have any leadership qualities. You're only capitalizing on your new title. That's not very engaging or motivating for anyone.
Speaker 2:I remember being in the telecom industry quite a while back and we had a really tough situation where we kind of cut the company in half. We were 110,000 people. We became 55,000 people in three years. It was massive. It was like an invitation and the first thing that we did in this company it was to take away all the fruit baskets gone. And everybody understood this was almost like a symbolic act, but it was understandable. We got it. We are in crisis right now, but then I went up to the executive floor and, gee and behold, they still had their fruit basket.
Speaker 2:That's just stupid. You don't do that. You lead by example. You don't sit in the front of the plane, Even though you have the best ticket. Just go back three steps so that people don't believe that you're entitled to all those things or don't care about the rest of us and so on. So those kind of things. They see us lead by example. I'm kind of deviating from your question, right now.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's such an important point though. It's such an important point because I a lot of times we forget that. I hate to use the word optics, but they do matter. The optics matter when you think about going on certain floors and all of the food baskets have disappeared. And then you go to the C-suite floor and there are all of the food baskets. It does send a certain message to the workforce, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that message is communication.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's communication straight off. It doesn't have to be me saying words, that you register the sound waves and you realize what I'm saying. It's all of those things. And as soon as you are a leader, people you know you send on a higher volume.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you, if you have a, let's say, you have a landscape, and the leader, she or he, raises up and goes somewhere, people will notice immediately, just because it's the manager. It's an unequal relationship. They matter, they have the power for some reason. Oh, what's going on, what's happening? Oh, immediately, things are happening in people's brains, so. So they send on a higher volume, which means that they have to balance that by caring perhaps even more. It's the whole Peter Parker thing. You know, if you are, you know what is it. I believe that with great power comes great responsibility. It wasn't that what his uncle said? That's right. We have the same in Sweden. We have this cartoon called Bamse. It's a bear, it's a nice bear who eats some sort of honey, a special honey which is like it's very strange. But then then he becomes super strong. But then he says since I'm the world's strongest bear, I also have to be the world's nicest bear, you know. So that's the Peter Parker version of that that we have in Sweden.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can have an incredible impact on those we communicate with If we can remember that really, there's two messages we're sending, right. I mean, there's that content level meaning. You know, if I'm telling you something, I'm going to put a fruit basket out here for the workforce. You know the content level meaning is okay, yeah, we're putting a fruit basket out there, so you can, you can understand, that is the action that is happening. But then there's also the relational level meaning. You know what, when we interpret that action, you know how is that making us feel? What does that make us believe about the person who is doing this? You know, it gives us a sense that they care about us, that they, you know, want to connect with us. In some way it really deepens that connection that we have with someone. So, if we can remember that, you know the content level meaning. But there's also that relational level meaning. And I think that second one, the relational level meaning, is probably what gets lost oftentimes.
Speaker 2:So I also remember one incident during that very you know, terrible and time where we knew, we knew that was going to be layoffs and all that. But we had one manager. I was in a team, I was a middle manager myself, but I was in a team with about 100 people and the head of the team those 100 people, he was on the same floor at the same time every day so that people can come there and just vent and ask. He didn't always have questions, many times he didn't have answers, but he was there, visible, available, caring for us, and I just he just grew I mean, the respect I felt for him just grew by realizing that he didn't shy away, he didn't try to to to to, you know, minimize our feelings or anything like that. You know, it took us seriously, just being there was also communication. I'm here, I'm standing right in front of you every day until this is over. You know, I found that really inspiring actually.
Speaker 1:Generate some passive income by launching your own online store today with Printful. Create and sell custom products online with easy print on demand drop shipping services. You can create an online store that sells a variety of high quality products that range from coffee mugs to phone cases to jackets, or you can even create your own unique apparel collection. So what are you waiting for? Get started today by clicking on the link in the show notes. Yeah, talking about listening skills.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you just mentioned sometimes maybe he wouldn't even have the answers Can you say a little more about the importance of listening skills, because I I will talk a lot about there's different types of listening and how important it is to be able to know when you can trans, when you should transition from one listening style to the next. Can you say a little bit more about that? In terms of you know, leadership and, I think, even managers, it's really important for them to understand how to become effective listeners so that they can, you know, better manage their employees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this relates to again, the superpower of empathy that I talked about before, being interested rather than interesting. And I just had a keynote for a large company and the head of that company came up to me afterwards and said you know what I realize now that I don't spend enough time listening, and so stressed out all the time that I don't listen well enough. And for me there was a clear sign of maturity for him. I was, I was really impressed by his kind of take on that one and the fact that he would improve. Yeah, you know, you have different levels of listening. First you have different types of questions that's one thing you know asking questions and so on. Then you have different levels of listening and the one that I normally talk about is that the first level is the most shallow level. You listen to respond. Basically, you hear something, I hear something that you've said, and then I just want you to shut up so I can speak now, because I heard that thing like in sales. Oh, you said efficiency. Now it's my turn to talk about rationalization. It's my turn, that's my turn type of communication.
Speaker 2:And you find that many, often, many times in, like dinner with friends, you know, you tell a story. You say, hey, I just met this guy on a podcast. His name was Anthony Lassin. I am blah, blah, blah. And then somebody else will say, oh, that reminds me of when I, and then they talk about their story. And then someone else says, oh, that's nothing that you know. When I was in, you know. And then they talk about their story. So it's you have a pile of stories on the table, but nobody really listened. And I and I think that that is okay in a safe environment with friends where you know each other well, but in a business context, this is devastating. It's really bad. You know, we have to listen much better.
Speaker 2:So I was at the next level. The deeper level is to listen to actually what has been said, like the whole sentence. Don't interrupt in halfway. You know, I still remember one of my former managers interrupting me half way through my question, like three times, and I just gave up and I actually was. I was pretty rude. I said now I want you to just be quiet until I'm done and then you can answer the question. It was. It wasn't a good conversation I can tell you about. The biggest problem was that five minutes later I did the exact same thing to one of my people. So I was. I wasn't better at all. I'm not pretending to be, you know, the super Superman of communication. All the time I failed and I still fail a lot of times.
Speaker 2:So that's when you listen to the whole sentence, kind of really figure out the content. You listen for the whole content, you try to understand the content. But then there is an even deeper level Some people call it global listening and that is when you, when you really take in the person, you try to understand the whole human being in front of you. When you do that, it's a lot about micro signals, that that nod, that micro nod or that smile that just comes from like a half second and then it's gone again. Those kind of things that gives you clues to whether or not this person is into what you're talking about. And when you listen to them, you realize that they, that they are also trusting you with whatever you say, whatever they say, and so on. So I would say that that is kind of the deepest form of listening. It requires you to really switch off your own judgmental voice in your head and really be there present, giving the I would say the the one gift you can never get back your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tension. If you pair those two up, then that's that's presence and that's kind of the biggest gift you can give, perhaps anyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's important to remember sometimes, if someone is coming to you to talk about an no-transcript, you don't necessarily have to have an answer. You know, sometimes it is nice to be able to. They just know that they can come to you because they just need to vent. You know, and I think sometimes that's difficult to know when to switch that on and when to switch that off.
Speaker 1:You know, as someone who is in a position in the workforce, you know do. Am I listening, because now I need to do something about this? Do I have to come up with an answer to this? Do I have to solve this problem, or is this a moment where this is a person who is just needing to be able to have someone who's willing to listen to them, let them vent, and then you know that is exactly what they need in this moment in time? I think it's really difficult to be able to. For many people, it's difficult to discern the difference between those two things. Do you have any recommendations for anyone who is in a position of leadership or management, you know, to be able to understand the difference between those two situations and how to, you know, go about moving forward in those situations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know we have to find that perfect balance between you know there's two polarities. One is micromanaging, yeah, the other one is abdicating. You know either of them are not good. So when it comes to coaching, the kind of coaching leadership, when you want to coach people, let them find their way, but you ask them right questions and so on. Don't go too far with it. So you just abdicate from your leadership role, from your management role, but don't give them all the solutions either, unless you clearly have something that they need immediately because you're in a hurry or something like that. Then it's another story.
Speaker 2:I have a colleague here in Sweden, speaker Colley, who's only focusing on listening. That's her thing. And sometimes when I talk to her she says how do you want me to listen? Yeah, and I found that interesting, that question, because then I can say you know, I want to bounce ideas with you, or I just want your advice, or I'm just fed up with something. You know I can. I have the freedom now to tell her how I want her to listen. I don't use it as much myself, but I really like it, I'm intrigued by it. I'm thinking about saying when can I use that question? Because it's a powerful question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've learned over the years to ask something similar and the reason I bring it up is I will full confession, full disclosure I am not. It's not easy for me to be empathetic toward others, depending on the situation, depending on what the topic is. I have found that, especially when I'm in work mode, I get so focused on the job itself, or this is what we're accomplishing, and I can very easily turn off all emotions and just get hyper focused on let's make sure we achieve this objective and don't cry about it. We don't have time for tears. Let's just and I don't know if maybe it's because the you know, I was in the military when I graduated high school. I went into the Marine Corps right afterwards and maybe that had an influence on you know cause I was still in those developmental years, you know, in my late teens, early 20s, and so I'm it's easy for me to cut off those emotions and say, okay, we don't have time for this, let's just figure out what it is that we need to do. And sometimes that is not the right reaction. You know, in different, in certain situations, sometimes it's great to have that ability to do that, especially if you're talking about a situation where it's. You know it's critical, something is happening in the moment and like we really do have to dig in and get this done.
Speaker 1:So over the years I've learned to ask. A question you know is do you need my help in figuring out how to solve this problem? Do you need my help in figuring out what it is you want your next move to be, or are you? Do you just need me to listen? You know, do you just need to vent? Let it out, cause I got you if? And I have found asking those questions really has helped as well. But interestingly, what has also happened is people will walk away and they'll say Jen, you are one of the most empathetic people I've ever met. You have so much empathy for others and I'm like but really do I? That's the impression you have, but I don't. A lot of times I don't feel that way. I'm, I've just learned to keep my mouth shut. I need to keep my mouth shut.
Speaker 2:But you know it works. Obviously by asking those questions you also tune in yourself to realize you know where are you on that scale of giving solutions or listening. Only Now you, by, by you allowing yourself also not only them to to, to vent or whatever you're allowing yourself also to to be tuned into the right to the right radio channel, more or less. So it's a smart move and this shows also that anyone can learn how to be more interested, more curious, more empathetic, for instance. It doesn't come natural for everyone, but everyone can learn just by having that mindset of learning and also asking those right questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a good one, it's a really good one and if you look at it from I studied the, I went into to this rabbit hole of charisma for a while and there are a number of things and everything, by the way, is about communication. So it's it's all about communication and one of those things is empathy. You know, if you show that, your empathy, you become more charismatic. If you're more charismatic, you become more influential.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:There are tons of other things as well, but this, this is one of those things, right, yeah, so you have nothing to lose by by having that ability. But also, if you do have that ability, you will create trust, you will create loyalty and you will have permission to sometimes say we don't have time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, cause those moments will happen. Those moments will happen where it's like, look, depending on what's going on, we really, we truly don't have time for this. We've got to make a decision, we got to move quickly. How? So? I'm sure you have seen the news. There have been situations where a CEO will get on Zoom and they have had to let go.
Speaker 1:You know of hundreds of people in that moment and I just I don't know what the answer is for situations like that. What are your thoughts on situations like that, where you have there's an organization because you talked about, you know, being a part of an organization that had to do mass layoffs at one time and it's incredibly painful for everybody all the way around, and then when you have a workforce that is dispersed, you know, all over the world, what, what is a way that you can balance the need to? We have this hard decision that we've made. Now we have to execute this decision, but we also have everybody dispersed all over the world. How can we do this in, as you know, I guess empathetic of a way or as easy not easy, but in a way that is gonna not do as much damage as it could do?
Speaker 2:Well, you probably shouldn't do it the way that we saw one of the richest men in the world did when it just sent an email to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're fired. That is so insensitive that it's almost crazy. That's the opposite of empathy, I would say showing, and that kind of takes away all the respect for the company, for that person and so on. So yeah, of course the richest form of communication is face to face in the same room. If that's not possible, then you have to do something else. Of course, always showing respect that you care, that's going to be the number one thing. But then there is a process also on how to deliver the bad news. You don't beat around the bush.
Speaker 2:If you want to do this properly, you go pretty straight into the topic, give the headline pretty early on, then you give explanations of why this decision has been made, so that people get it. They don't necessarily have to like it, but they have to get it and provide more details. Like that you can also have empathy with the consequences of it. You understand that this puts a lot of economic strain or uncertainty in their lives. You understand that. But you don't deviate from the topic. I mean, it's still going to happen. For instance, the layoffs are going to happen. I get that this is really hard. But if you do this properly, showing that you do it these ways and then also making sure that you have time to handle the negative reactions that absolutely will follow, because all of a sudden we're back into the tribe, us and them, and you just tell me that I'm not, no longer needed in this tribe, which is our death sentence. If you go back 50,000 years, you do have a process you can follow. It does not mean that it's easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you almost have to prepare yourself mentally and emotionally, absolutely yeah, yeah, to get some hate, You're going to get perhaps hate me crying.
Speaker 2:There's so many things that happens with people because they're really devastated. You took away the livelihood, more or less. That is tough If you do it. If you can't do it face to face in the same room, then face to face in a video call is probably the next best thing. The more you can individualize it, the better. I'm saying this with great respect when you cannot, but the more you can, the better it is.
Speaker 1:So in those certain situations where it is a massive layoff and you have people just all over the world, maybe it's just an indication that there's just one of you, or I don't know Do you think it is better to come from the CEO or do you think it would be better if they just maybe at the department level, where it's a little more of an even though it's over Zoom, at least it's a smaller group of people.
Speaker 2:I would say that the CEO, sometimes the head of the company, should probably communicate something first. We need to prepare people as well. We are in a super tough situation. This is hard for us. We need to figure out the way to go forward. We probably have to lay off people. That has to happen, I think, from the top Then when the actual layoff happened. Now I'm into opinions, by the way. I don't have any research on this myself. I can point to, so this is just my opinion now and my observation. I think it would be good if the closest manager is the one actually yeah, the one that you have a relationship every day.
Speaker 1:That's probably having these types of conversations with other communication experts, because there are different opinions out there on how to go about it. I think it's good to just explore, to see within your different organization, depending on the personalities, depending on the relationships, what are some of the options that do exist out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, upside to talking to a lot of people at the same time, you become more anonymous. Yeah, so it's not about you only. It's about all of us 100 people in this call.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then it becomes perhaps easier from that perspective that I'm not alone in this. But sooner or later you want clarification. It's like you break up with somebody. You want to know why, what's going on here, why did this happen, and so on. So sooner or later you need to have some sort of probably some sort of individual conversation anyway, and at least that one should be taken with the closest manager, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So do you recommend for organizations should they invest in ongoing communication skills training for the whole organization, or at least for their managers at a minimum?
Speaker 1:Because I know what I have found, because I do go into organizations and primarily I will work with young managers, those who are fresh in the management area, and they just kind of like these are skills I really have not had an opportunity to practice along the way. I've been putting together widgets the whole time. Now all of a sudden I got to deal with people and then I'll get called into an organization and they're like okay, we want them to be excellent communicators and we'll give you like three hours to make it happen. And I'm like, are you like, do you do realize that that's not possible? I mean, yeah, we can talk about some tips, right, we can give some recommendations, but that's not really developing a core skill set that your management team needs to have in order for this to be effective. What kind of conversations do you have or have you had with leadership teams on the importance of ongoing communication skills training for their management teams?
Speaker 2:You know, when you describe that three hour thing, it's like try to water your lawn for 15 minutes in a really sunny day. It would just evaporate. You know, going to the ground anyway, I see it as an equilateral triangle as well between goals, resources and methods. So if you have high goals, you have to give me the resources so I can create methods that are correct, like individual coaching, for instance, which takes much longer time but it's also much more efficient but it costs more. So it's kind of that structure you need to look at. So if you have high goals, then you need to expand resources and methods. If you have low goals, then you can do perhaps that thing in two hours or three hours and something like that.
Speaker 2:But don't think that anyone is competent just because you spend three hours with them. They are perhaps more knowledgeable, that's it. So, yeah, I mean I see communication skills for everyone doesn't have to be a manager. I mean, if you're a project manager without any employees, if you're just, you know whoever, they still need to be a good communicator in order to collaborate, cooperate and get things done. But of course, again, leaders, managers, they send on a higher level, higher volume. They need to, for sure be a good communicator that is necessary, but it's about conversations where you actually spend a lot of time listening. Also, it's about presentations where you use mostly used to two other superpowers, which is energy and clarity, and then you need to apply them in different situations, for instance, being really good at leading, engaging, effective meetings, which is, you know, in those meetings one of the things you do is to present something, for instance, and the rest of the things are about discussing things. So the conversation and presentation are kind of the foundation, and then you have applications on top of that, like hybrid or meetings or things like that.
Speaker 2:So I see very few people, very few managers that I've met, who have done any type of meeting training. They are supposed to know this because they have white colors and work in an office Very strange and a bit more people, but not that many, still have done any type of leadership training when it comes to conversations, and then, a bit more than that, have done presentation skills training at least once. You know, once back in the whatever nineties, I did one for two days, and now I know probably you don't. But it's kind of the idea that once you've done it, you take off the box and then you can go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but for me, for instance, who I'm a professional speaker if I thought that, yeah, I've done a number of speeches, now I can just sit back and drink beer and eat some potato chips, I will not improve my game, I will just go backwards. So, yeah, I need to constantly improve my game, I need to be good at what I call communication excellence, and that is something that you cannot ever stop doing if you want to develop yourself. If you stop doing it, you will relatively see a way to go backwards. Everyone else will go forward and you will just stand still.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and things are evolving.
Speaker 2:If you're a leader, then you probably probably are not a leader to begin with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And as things evolve, as the world around us continues to change and that's what I liked about your TEDx talk you talked about the impact of technology as well. Our faces are in our phones all the time now, and it's having a huge impact on our ability to make connections with others in a meaningful way, and so it's just so incredibly important to just be mindful of this and how we're engaging with others in the world, whether it's through technology or, you know, of course, through face to face. It's a skill like any other skill. We got to work at it every single day, so I can't believe it's already been like literally over an hour now.
Speaker 1:So I looked over at the timer was 20 minutes five minutes ago, so I don't understand how the time went by. I have two more questions for you. One is if there was just one thing for the listener who is paying attention to this conversation right now, there's just one thing that they could begin working on right now to improve their communication, to improve, you know, being able to connect with others more effectively. What is that one teeny, tiny little thing that they could begin focusing on today?
Speaker 2:work on being more interested rather than interesting. Interested instead of interesting. I think that's the one it's. So much will happen. If you open that door and start to be curious and listen, people will respect you more, like you more, trust you more, and then they will listen to you more when you speak as well. So, yeah, that's the one I think that I would like to share. That's part of the word care I talked about before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fantastic, I love that. Be more interested than interesting, that's really good, I love that.
Speaker 2:So if you are more interested, you become more interesting as well so it's like you just get it for free.
Speaker 1:Isn't it funny how that works. It's amazing how that works. You can start developing that connection and then, all of a sudden, yeah, Okay. So my last question, of course, is gonna be what's next for you? What's going on? I know you travel around the world, you give keynote presentations. Do you have a big project that you're working on next?
Speaker 2:I have a couple of books that probably will come out within the next year around communication. So I have one called Speed Selling that is being edited right now and that is about how it's a very niche book. It's a niche book. It's about how to behave when you're working at a booth and a trade show. How do you get that instant connection with somebody? You have such a short time, so how do you get that communication flowing quickly in order to decipher if they're interested or not, if they're the right person or not, if you have something for them or not, and how can you get some sort of commitment going on if they are. So that's. I've done a lot of training in this particular area, but again, it's like a niche product. So that's one of those things. Otherwise, it's almost like business as usual. Right now it is. It's just more of what I do, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's exciting, though, with that new book coming out and that is so interesting. I can't wait. So when exactly do you think that's gonna be out and available?
Speaker 2:Today. I sent my correctional notes on it, so it's in the process, but I would guess this fall probably.
Speaker 1:yeah, okay all right, something to look forward to. It's up to the publisher.
Speaker 2:I don't know how their agenda looks like and the schedule they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2:I trust them.
Speaker 1:It's exciting. We'll look for that announcement then Come this fall. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that everything will go smoothly and we'll be able to see that on the shelves this fall. All right, so anyone who's interested in contacting you, how do they do so?
Speaker 2:So if you can spell my name, you will find me. I am the only one who has that name Anthony Lassini. I'm on LinkedIn. That's my only social media profile that I work with. I do have an obscure Instagram account, but that's nothing. Linkedin is my playground. That's where I share insights about communication and motivation and so on, and then AnthonyLassinicom is where you find what you find full length keynotes. You find my topics. It's all there on that one. All right, but I would like to boomerang one thing, jan. If it's okay, I'd like to ask you if I have the permission to give something to your listeners.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 2:All right. So one of the books I've written is called Employee Engagement, but the sub-tiles is perhaps more interesting, specifically for this podcast. It says 20 keys to an outstanding workplace communication, and I have a hidden link on my webpage where you can download this book for free. So here's what you get. If you listen to this episode with Jan and me and I, interestingly and you think that it's a lot of interest in it, then connect with me on LinkedIn and tell me. Tell me that you've been listening to this podcast and I will share that hidden link with you so you can get that book and my 20 insights that I've gathered along the decades of looking into this.
Speaker 1:Wonderful? Yeah, absolutely so. I will make sure to put your LinkedIn profile well, not your whole profile, but the LinkedIn URL in our show notes so that anyone who is listening to this they will be able to quickly find you on that platform. And remember to mention that you heard this on the Communication 24-7 podcast. You listened to Anthony and Jen's conversation and you're interested in learning more. You wanna have a copy of that book and that'll be yours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you so much again, anthony, for being a guest on the show to share your wisdom about this important thing we call communication. It is a skill like any other skill. We gotta work at it every single day to get better at it. And one last thing I always like to say is practice does not make perfect. It makes better, and I think that's really what we're striving for. So I really appreciate you giving your time to the audience so that they can learn from you, gain a little more knowledge, some insight, because it's only going to help us all make better connections in the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if only one of you do one thing and you feel that you improved, then that's been worthwhile. So conversation, that's right. It's been good anyway, just to talk into you, Jen, to be honest. But of course, if we can get more people to just be a little bit better, then this world is a little bit better.
Speaker 1:That's the goal, isn't it? That's the goal. Let's talk just a little bit better. All right, everyone, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I know I really enjoyed it. It was a fantastic conversation. It was fun for me, and let's reengage again at some point. Anthony, I would love to have you on the show again, maybe in the fall, when that new book comes out.
Speaker 2:Let's yeah, for sure, we'll kill it yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, excellent. All right, everyone. Have a great rest of your day and we'll catch you next time. Bye.
Speaker 2:Bye-bye. ["the Last Song of the Year"].
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review.
